Weathercock's Better Berserker Barbarian

Weathercock, your original post below your red updated text is next to impossible to read if you have a black background (like I do). I'm guessing you copied this from another document and pasted into the post, thus it is not formated properly. You correct this by selecting the text and pushing the "Remove Format" button on the upper left of the post editor. It is the AA icon with the X through it. Top row, second icon from the left. Just thought you might want to know.
 

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It is? By whom?

I haven't found that to be true. In fact, I think the berserker is one of the most awesomely effective combat machines in the game.

Check just about any topic on this forum that discusses the Berserker since 5e's launch. The overwhelming opinion on this forum and others is that the Berserker is more of an inadequate trap than a full-fledged archetype.

Well, I've found that pc berserkers are more than willing to suck up a level of exhaustion or two, sometimes more when the chips are down. And the frenzy shouldn't be used every time they rage; if it was intended to be, it would simply supplement/replace rage.

And that's great if your players are having fun with that (really, it is, I'm glad someone is at least having fun), but it doesn't change the fact that the Berserker is simply numerically inferior to pretty much every other option available. You use Frenzy to catch up to the Totem Warrior's output, or you take a halberd/Polearm Mastery yourself (overlapping with the bulk of your archetype abilities) in order to keep up with less functionality. Either way, Berserker offers very little of value.

Most barbarians do more than 1d4 with that bonus action attack. Polearm masters do 1d4. (Plus Str bonus, of course, but that's a wash.)

You also are forgetting that the butt attack of Polearm mastery also does the +10 damage from Great Weapon mastery, as well as rage damage. The static bonuses end up becoming high enough that the fact that it's a d4 over something higher isn't really a problem.

I see what you're getting at here. I guess if you find the Frenzy damage boost to be overwhelming, this is a good fix. Personally, I like the fact that barbarians do lots and lots of damage and evaluate classes on a more rounded basis than just damage.

The thing is that Barbarians don't actually do a huge amount of damage compared to other frontliners (assuming those frontliners actually make use of their abilities). And that's okay, the Barbarian is a very durable and consistent class, which helps to make up for that disparity. But the Berserker, the offensive variant of the Barbarian class, should at least do more damage than the support archetype, who up until now (and especially with the new abilities introduced in SCAG) was able to do more damage all day long while also supporting his entire party.

I also really think you're overvaluing a bonus action attack for 1d4 damage when compared to a 2d6 or 1d12 hit with a maul or greataxe.

No I'm not. I've run the numbers. 1d4 to 2d6/1d12 isn't much at all when you have static damage bonuses ranging from +15 to +22.

Weathercock, your original post below your red updated text is next to impossible to read if you have a black background (like I do). I'm guessing you copied this from another document and pasted into the post, thus it is not formated properly. You correct this by selecting the text and pushing the "Remove Format" button on the upper left of the post editor. It is the AA icon with the X through it. Top row, second icon from the left. Just thought you might want to know.

Corrected. Let me know if it still gives you problems.
 


I've updated my Better Berserker again, this time altering Frenzy so that it only functions with Reckless Attack. This change serves two purposes: First, it fits with the more reckless, bloodthirsty playstyle that the Berserker is supposed to embody and gives you further reason to use Reckless Attack even if you would already have advantage (which you do get with Bloodlust, but now with an increase to the damage cap, making it more of a natural extension of the cornerstone ability), and second, it helps to differentiate its functionality from that of Polearm Mastery, giving PM's bonus attack a use when you don't want to make the commitment to giving your enemies advantage to hit you.
 

Intimidating Presence needs a rewrite: consider a Rogue who has expertise in Intimidation and then becomes a Barbarian. +24 to the roll at later levels is a bit OTT!
 

Intimidating Presence needs a rewrite: consider a Rogue who has expertise in Intimidation and then becomes a Barbarian. +24 to the roll at later levels is a bit OTT!

Nope, page 173-4 of the PHB has that covered. You cannot add or multiply your proficiency bonus more than once.
 

Nope, page 173-4 of the PHB has that covered. You cannot add or multiply your proficiency bonus more than once.

That's why it needs a rewrite:

OP said:
Intimidating Presence
At 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill. If you already have proficiency in Intimidation, then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check that uses Intimidation.

Should be something like:

Intimidating Presence
At 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill. If you already have proficiency in Intimidation, then you gain Expertise for any ability check that uses Intimidation.
 

"Expertise" is not actually a modifier for anything. It's the name of a specific class feature that, although shared by two different classes, does not actually act as bonus itself. It simply allows you to pick two skills you are proficient in and double the proficiency bonus for checks that use those skills, you don't actually have a bonus called Expertise. It's just doubling your proficiency bonus. The Purple Dragon Knight's Royal Envoy feature, as well as the Knowledge Cleric's Blessings of Knowledge are worded the same way as my Berserker's Intimidating Presence for the same reason.

That's why saying that it would "give expertise in X skill" wouldn't work, since there's no general rule in the book that makes reference to expertise as a thing, and why no other class which uses proficiency doubling abilities reference it either. While the intent in saying such might be to double the proficiency bonus, RAW, to have a rule that says that would do absolutely nothing. It's also why the Bard and Rogue entries for their respective Expertise features contain redundant text, technically being two completely unique and separate class features.
 
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Looking over the existing Berserker, I only have 2 complaints.

In theory, I like Frenzy as is; it works out to be a 1/day super rage. I like it. It's problem is that it uses your bonus action. As one of my players put it, there are plenty of ways to get extra attacks, and a subclass that is just built around getting extra attacks is kind of lame. Barbarians are going to pick up Great Weapon Master if feats are allowed, so ...

My second issue is Intimidating Presence. I don't like this because I feel like this is something that everyone should be able to do with Intimidation. Also, it uses Charisma, which wasn't important until just then, so it would only be a good stat if the player had looked ahead and designed their character with it in mind.

I tested the berserker against my fighter excel sheet, and the berserker deals more damage than the fighter everywhere except levels 11, 12, and 13 if you assume 1 frenzy per day, 6 encounters per day, and Retaliation each round. Heck, I'm beginning to like the idea of moving Retaliation to the Barbarian proper as a level 11 ability, as it would be functionally equivalent with a fighter's 3rd attack.

Now, that's not saying I don't like yours. I went and reread it, and the only thing I'm worried about is the level 14 ability. Taken with everything else, it's another big boost to power. As it stands now, as I said in another thread, both barbarian paths' level 10 abilities aren't really combat abilities, they're utility and defensive abilities. You moved the level 14 ability to level 10, and then added another attack at level 14. So your berserker has, effectively, 4 attacks per round at level 14, when the fighter has to wait till 20th level.

Reckless attack while raging isn't a penalty in my book, as the resistance to damage makes up for getting hit more.
 

I tested the berserker against my fighter excel sheet, and the berserker deals more damage than the fighter everywhere except levels 11, 12, and 13 if you assume 1 frenzy per day, 6 encounters per day, and Retaliation each round. Heck, I'm beginning to like the idea of moving Retaliation to the Barbarian proper as a level 11 ability, as it would be functionally equivalent with a fighter's 3rd attack.

Are you factoring in abilities like Action Surge and archetype specific abilities? If so, the Fighter who can manage to net himself advantage in key opportunities is capable of doing far more damage than a comparably built Barbarian in all but the most extended of encounters (without factoring the Fighter's capacity to utilize their own reaction, which would send them through the roof).

Now, that's not saying I don't like yours. I went and reread it, and the only thing I'm worried about is the level 14 ability. Taken with everything else, it's another big boost to power. As it stands now, as I said in another thread, both barbarian paths' level 10 abilities aren't really combat abilities, they're utility and defensive abilities. You moved the level 14 ability to level 10, and then added another attack at level 14. So your berserker has, effectively, 4 attacks per round at level 14, when the fighter has to wait till 20th level.

Do note that Retaliate has an activation requirement of suffering damage from a creature in range, in addition to using up the reaction. Fighter (and Barbarian as well, lowering the value of Retaliation) can also easily gain access to the reliable use of a reaction attack through feats like Sentinal, Mage Slayer, and Polearm Mastery feats without necessitating the loss of HP, and usually being more versatile in their utilization. For the sake of comparison, at level 20 a Fighter should have no trouble getting 6 (5 at 11) attacks a turn without using Action Surge or Haste​.

While Retaliate may be a combat ability, so was the old Intimidating Presence. And moving Retaliate to level 10, despite being a signature combat ability, was done because I feel it creates a much more sensible progression in combat capabilities. Frenzy without exhaustion is simply too much raw power, regardless of its actual overall value, to balance at level 3, and still straddles that point from 6 on (and besides, Mindless Rage is actually in a really good spot, it doesn't need to move), up until higher levels. Giving it before level 11 would be far too much. And since Retaliation itself is only about on par with the minor points of some other feats (indeed, many Berserkers might still have interest in taking the above mentioned OoA feats), putting it at level 10 is the safest option for the ability.

While Wizards themselves does state that caution should be taken when giving combat abilities to the Barbarian archetypes at level 10, they don't even follow their own advice with their Berserker or Battlerager archetypes anyway. That said, I would not be adverse to giving my Better Berserker something more fluff oriented in addition at level 10 (and for this, I'm completely open for suggestions), I just don't see a problem with Retaliation itself where I have it.

Reckless attack while raging isn't a penalty in my book, as the resistance to damage makes up for getting hit more.

If you already have advantage, which I maintain is not particularly difficult to get in 5e as a melee fighter, especially if you're using the expanded combat rules from the DMG, Reckless Attack typically becomes redundant, only serving to increase the damage you take. Having it act as a requirement for use fits with the "all in" concept of the Berserker, giving players a reason to consider the use of the ability even in situations where it would normally present exclusively downsides. And while resistance definitely does help in this situation, it's mostly there to balance the fact that a Barbarian is going to be giving advantage to his enemies most of the time anyway.
 
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