What is new in that? Dice pools and unique dice have already appeared in indie RPGs.
WFRP3e: Dice mechanics
- Thread starter Jan van Leyden
- Start date
What is new in that? Dice pools and unique dice have already appeared in indie RPGs.
gribble
Explorer
I'll ignore the fact that the market for WFRP 3e is probably substantially different from the market for indy RPGs, and therefore it probably is new to most of the target market.
Aside from that:
- The combination of action cards, custom dice and dice pools constructed from dice of different types is something I haven't seen before in a RPG (indy or otherwise)
- Stances and the stance meter is something I haven't seen before in a mainstream RPG
- The introduction of the party card and a real mechanic for party interaction is something I haven't seen before in a mainstream RPG
- The main unique/different elements of previous versions of WFRP - careers and the career advancement system and critical hits - are both present.
So I certainly see a lot of new and revolutionary things, both in terms of the components of the game and the actual systems behind those components.
Now I'll admit I don't know every indy RPG ever released (let alone every RPG ever released), so some may have one or more of the above features. When you consider all of the above in combination though, I don't see how anyone can honestly claim that WFRP 3e isn't new and revolutionary (regardless of whether you like the direction it's going in or not)!
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y"]jgerman Likes Turtles[/ame]jgerman said:
Well, off the top of my head I remember Deadlands combining "action cards" and dice pools (consisting of dice of different sizes), and I'd count it among "mainstream" RPGs (I don't know if it has any stances or something equivalent to them, as it's been years since I read the book). Then there's 'Legends of Alyria' which has cool, thematic custom dice to resolve conflicts. 'Dragonlance SAGA' used cards (representing different characters from the books) that were linked to "characteristic suits" (e.g. Moon = Reason) and alignment, and although the system didn't hold together very well, you could use the cards in very innovative and alternative ways to resolve actions and narration.
Stances are nothing new, either -- didn't ToB include them for D&D, even? Likewise with "tension meter" or social/event grid; I can't recall the name of the system at the moment, but I remember that one system used "danger meter" (as it went up, things got harder for the PCs; naturally, winding it back meant things were easier) and IIRC 'Grey Ranks' uses some sort of grid to map emotions/danger/tension (actually, a number of indie games use meters/grid in this sense).
You're probably correct that no single system has tried *all* that; 'Deadlands' out of the "mainstream" systems probably comes closest to what FFG tries with WFRP 3E (boardgames are another matter, though). However, I don't see anything that would be "new" or "innovative" or "revolutionary" in the sense that it wouldn't have already appeared in a RPG or boardgame. I wouldn't claim my new RPG system was "revolutionary" if I took 90% of the mechanics/elements/components from a handful of different RPGs (e.g. the jenga tower from 'Dread', hand-drawn grid from 'Grey Ranks', negotiation phrases from 'Polaris', Insanity points from CoC, Virtues and Flaws from Ars Magica, Quest Cards from D&D, and so on).
gribble
Explorer
Sure, there was a thing called a "stance" in ToB (as there is in 4e D&D as well). They're nothing like the stance mechanic in WFRP 3e though, which is a general character condition which applies to all rolls the character makes (social, non-combat, combat, etc).
Any new RPG these days takes mechanics/elements/components from other games (be they other RPGs, board games, CCGs, CMGs, CRPGs or other). I think the last truly innovative thing I've seen was Dread using the Jenga tower - and that was borrowed wholecloth from the Jenga boardgame!
The revolution comes from how the system takes the various mechanics/elements/components and blends them together in new ways. And that looks to be exactly what WFRP 3e is doing.
Andor
First Post
The Party Card I find to be a fascinating idea. It serves many functions.
It helps to define the party's role and relationship both internally and externally in a way I haven't seen before as a system mechanic, although the party charter conceptually serves many of the same functions. They are rare to see however.
It provides the GM with a way to kick the party in the butt by ratcheting up the tension meter when there is too much internal conflict. And conversely reward party cohesiveness.
It allows characters to share resources in a way which (while not unique) is rarely available to all character types.
It provides an excellent mechanical system for party morale with both positive and negative aspects, and yet without ever mandating a PCs actions.
Cool stuff.
It helps to define the party's role and relationship both internally and externally in a way I haven't seen before as a system mechanic, although the party charter conceptually serves many of the same functions. They are rare to see however.
It provides the GM with a way to kick the party in the butt by ratcheting up the tension meter when there is too much internal conflict. And conversely reward party cohesiveness.
It allows characters to share resources in a way which (while not unique) is rarely available to all character types.
It provides an excellent mechanical system for party morale with both positive and negative aspects, and yet without ever mandating a PCs actions.
Cool stuff.
I think I'll redesign D&D to resolve all attacks and spells by playing a game of Twister. If the one who initiates the attack/spell wins, the move succeeds, otherwise it fails.
It's totally stupid, but it's new and different so I'll be hailed as a pioneer of new gaming techniques and get all kinds of bonus cred from people who may not even have been interested in the game I was rewriting in the first place.
It's totally stupid, but it's new and different so I'll be hailed as a pioneer of new gaming techniques and get all kinds of bonus cred from people who may not even have been interested in the game I was rewriting in the first place.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
You know what the difference is between your example and the WFRP 3E example?
The Warhammer approach actually makes sense. It is useable. Yours is just hyperbole and not conductive to any discussion.
Also be glad - I am actually interested in Warhammer in the first place. I enjoyed 2E. I might also enjoy 3E.
The Warhammer approach actually makes sense. It is useable. Yours is just hyperbole and not conductive to any discussion.
Also be glad - I am actually interested in Warhammer in the first place. I enjoyed 2E. I might also enjoy 3E.
So these 'stances' in WFRP 3e work like conditions in D&D, in the sense that they affect all rolls? Am I confusing them now with the "party alignment" which affected everyone? Or is it talent-based? I want to make sure I understand what we're talking about, but I still don't think it's nothing new on tabletop RPGs (I think I've seen systems which allow you to take, for example, 'Aggressive' stance/action which nets you damage bonuses and social penalties).
I don't know about you, but I'm easily distracted by all sorts of props on the table; the less stuff there's on the table (including dice and miniatures) the easier it's for me and my friends to focus on what's happening in the game. So that's why I don't think I'm overly excited about the amount of colorful cards, plastic sheets, various dice types, counters, and so on in the game (not only that, but seems like all this extra stuff is one reason why the core box is so expensive; around here this will cost 100 *euros*).
As for the revolution... you're right, the trick is in how it all blends together; somehow I feel very suspicious of WFRP 3E managing to do that in a way that still feels more like a RPG than a boardgame. I just don't see anything truly innovative or how it all comes together in *new* ways there. Like I said, I could steal all the mechanics from a handful of games and call it "revolutionary"; maybe I could even make it all actually *work* seamlessly. Would that mean I actually did something worthy of praise? I don't think so, but naturally your mileage may vary.
There are still games that come up with new "innovations" (I would call the negotiation phrases used in Polaris as a good example), but not every such mechanic is actually revolutionary by my standards; for example, an indie game called 'Mist-Robed Gate' has mechanics linked to a real, sharp KNIFE that's kept in the center of the table so the players can slash and cut their character sheet with it (I don't know how you feel, but I wouldn't play any game that includes real guns or knives in the mechanics and/or props... not even with a group of good friends).
Not knowing and never having played the old WFRP I have to say I'm intrigued by all the innovations in WFRP3e. While I somewhat understand the outrage of 2e players/fans, I'd really wish more of them tried to be more objective when judging the new mechanisms.
It may turn out the dice mechanics are overly complicated and/or don't add much to the game but the system definitely deserves being judged by its own merits before being damned just because it's different.
It might have been more honest to give the game a new name rather than just calling it 3E, though.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least some of the new ideas will get integrated into new rpg systems or new editions to come.
And no matter how things turn out I applaud FFG for their courage to break new ground.
It may turn out the dice mechanics are overly complicated and/or don't add much to the game but the system definitely deserves being judged by its own merits before being damned just because it's different.
It might have been more honest to give the game a new name rather than just calling it 3E, though.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if at least some of the new ideas will get integrated into new rpg systems or new editions to come.
And no matter how things turn out I applaud FFG for their courage to break new ground.
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