WFRP3e: Dice mechanics

[I'm A Banana]

The world has plenty of 320-page hardcover rulebooks. It's possible there are other formats/interfaces/methods of play that would work as well or better for RPGs. I'm excited that someone's actually exploring that possibility. Will it be awesome? Who knows? But it's awesome that it's being tried!

I'll agree with that.

For me, I probably won't be that into it. All these specialized components, to me, are just barriers to entry. It's awkward enough carrying around a D&D dice bag and books, I'm not going to lug a whole kit around me whenever I want to pretend to be a punk rock dwarf.

But I am very pumped that new things are being tried, and I strongly suspect that this will appeal to the "gamers" in the market who like the stuff (and they are a rather under-served segment!).

 

[Mircoles]

It seems a tad over complicated, though still interesting.

It seems like you have to wait for the moment to build your dicepool, no being ready to roll the dice beforehand to quicken things up.

It's not a resolution system that excites me and initially it'll likely be annoying to get used to.

Though, it might be something you have to try to understand.

 

[jgerman]

It has more components for sure but I feel that this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that these components are supposed to excise the oftentimes frustrating amount of bookkeeping involved in WHFRP and WHFRP2e.

Which bookkeeping was that?

Looking just at the die mechanic it's become vastly more complicated.

For example in combat:

Old way - roll percentile, if it's under a target you hit, reverse the digits to see where, GM or player narrates the hit or miss

New Way - select dice to form pool, collection additional dice from GM, roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel (until there are no re-rolls), read dice to see "why" you did or didn't hit

They're taking a simple, clean mechanism and turning it into a multi-step dice-fest.

 

[Primal]

Which bookkeeping was that?

Looking just at the die mechanic it's become vastly more complicated.

For example in combat:

Old way - roll percentile, if it's under a target you hit, reverse the digits to see where, GM or player narrates the hit or miss

New Way - select dice to form pool, collection additional dice from GM, roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel (until there are no re-rolls), read dice to see "why" you did or didn't hit

They're taking a simple, clean mechanism and turning it into a multi-step dice-fest.

I don't get the point about excessive bookkeeping in WFRP, either; I mean, it's almost non-existent when compared to D&D, anyway.

I also agree with the complexity of these new mechanics; I'm not against custom dice per se -- for example, 'Legends of Alyria' is a good example of a game that manages to utilize them in a way that enhances atmosphere and yet is easy to read. Many systems also use the dice pool (e.g. WoD, Burning Wheel, Dogs in the Vineyard, Godlike etc.) without letting the number or size of the dice slow down game play. This, however, seems to be a fairly "messy" system (IMHO). Whatever it gains in slightly more accurate narrative (i.e. "This is how you succeeded/failed..."), it loses in elegance and ease of play.

 

[Emirikol]

I'm just glad that the title is still in production. It's fate was really hanging in the balance after it got dumped as unprofitable by B.I.

jh

 

[jdrakeh]

Which bookkeeping was that?

Well, I was specifically referring to the tracking of percentage points for stats, experience points spent on advancements, actual number of advancements, and so forth. The nuts and bolts of character growth. Also, monster traits and such as Delericho mentioned.

As I understand it, the reasoning behind the new cards and dice is to take that kind of information and put it directly into play, rather than in a box on a character sheet. Whether this works or not remains to be seen.

Looking just at the die mechanic it's become vastly more complicated.

For example in combat:

Old way - roll percentile, if it's under a target you hit, reverse the digits to see where, GM or player narrates the hit or miss

New Way - select dice to form pool, collection additional dice from GM, roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel, re-roll, remove dice that cancel (until there are no re-rolls), read dice to see "why" you did or didn't hit

They're taking a simple, clean mechanism and turning it into a multi-step dice-fest.

I don't think you looked very closely. Either that, or I didn't. I see no indicators that you re-roll anything. Not in the "Of Dice and Men" article, nor in the linked PDF. Where are coming up with the notion that you re-roll multiple times?

 

[jgerman]

Well, I was specifically referring to the tracking of percentage points for stats, experience points spent on advancements, actual number of advancements, and so forth. The nuts and bolts of character growth. Also, monster traits and such as Delericho mentioned.

As I understand it, the reasoning behind the new cards and dice is to take that kind of information and put it directly into play, rather than in a box on a character sheet. Whether this works or not remains to be seen.

That stuff is still on the character sheet.

You called it 'frustrating'. Tracking values for stats (I'm not even sure that that means.. you mean writing them down? That isn't very difficult), recording experience points (again... not hard), number of advancements (you don't have to track these they are implicit). These aren't tedious or frustrating at all in WHFRP, and they are present in every RPG.

Furthermore, you have to track several types of dice to make a roll in 3E, as opposed to looking at one value. So again, I'm not seeing the simplification. Looking at several different places to figure out what dice to roll instead of looking in one and reading off a target value is simpler?

So again, I'm not seeing the frustration. I've never seen anyone complain about the bookkeeping in WHFRP so maybe you can provide specific examples.

I don't think you looked very closely. Either that, or I didn't. I see no indicators that you re-roll anything. Not in the "Of Dice and Men" article, nor in the linked PDF. Where are coming up with the notion that you re-roll multiple times?

I looked plenty closely. It's in the PDF.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That stuff is still on the character sheet.

You called it 'frustrating'. Tracking values for stats (I'm not even sure that that means.. you mean writing them down? That isn't very difficult), recording experience points (again... not hard), number of advancements (you don't have to track these they are implicit). These aren't tedious or frustrating at all in WHFRP, and they are present in every RPG.

Furthermore, you have to track several types of dice to make a roll in 3E, as opposed to looking at one value. So again, I'm not seeing the simplification. Looking at several different places to figure out what dice to roll instead of looking in one and reading off a target value is simpler?

So again, I'm not seeing the frustration. I've never seen anyone complain about the bookkeeping in WHFRP so maybe you can provide specific examples.



I looked plenty closely. It's in the PDF.

You can't take a number from your character sheet and roll it.

You can easily roll all the dice lying on your character sheet or power cards and roll those.

 

[jgerman]

You can't take a number from your character sheet and roll it.

You can easily roll all the dice lying on your character sheet or power cards and roll those.

I can't have two d10s on my character sheet? That's quite a shocking relevation.. how have I been doing it all this time?

Umm.. so?

Good luck getting enough dice. There aren't enough in the core set to go around for that.

It's a ridiculous proposition on it's face. You have "power" cards, you have a character card, you have a character sheet, you have a stance meter, you have wound cards, etc, etc. Not only are you lacking enough dice, you're lacking enough space on these cards to place dice AND be able to still read the card. Not to mention you have multiple skills on your character sheet... with values written down just like older editions. Are you placing attribute and fortune dice next to every one of those as well? Yeah I don't think so.

In any event who cares? I can put d10s on my character sheet in 1e and 2e, I pick them up, and try and roll under the number for my skill and immediately see the result.

However in 3e

If the action being attempted is based on an action card, the related skill or characteristic to use in the check appears on the card. For actions that do not rely on action cards, such as a standard use of a skill, the skill used determines which characteristic the check is based on.

The first step in assembling a dice pool is taking a number of blue dice equal to the hero’s characteristic rating, and any white fortune dice that may be associated with the characteristic (showing a slight edge, knack, or advantage with that ability). If the hero has training in the relevant skills, he adds one yellow expertise die to the dice pool for each level of training.

Next, the GM determines what challenges or potential misfortunes face the character, and adds the appropriate dice to the pool. This is based on the inherent difficulty level of the attempted task, as well as any other factors that try to undermine the character’s chances of success.

Finally, before rolling the dice pool, the player converts some of his blue characteristic dice into stance dice. This step is not optional – the player must convert a number of blue dice into a number of stance dice based on his depth on the character’s stance meter.

The player also has an opportunity to spend fortune points to modify the dice pool. For each fortune point spent, one white fortune die is added to the pool.

And that's not even taking into account the cancellations, the extra rolls, the new cancellations, the interpretation... yeah that's a lot more simple.

 

[jdrakeh]

You called it 'frustrating'.

I said that the amount of bookkeeping was frustrating, not the actual bookkeeping itself — and, of course, by that I meant that I find it frustrating. Really, I don't need to justify that with examples.

The stated intent of the new dice and cards is to put certain information directly into actual play as opposed to having them merely serve as a reference. The idea is that it will make play flow more smoothly but, as I said, this remains to be seen.

They address this aspect of the design on the FFG site better than I can here. I will not attempt to presume that I know more than the people who work for FFG.

I looked plenty closely. It's in the PDF.

The word "re-roll" isn't in the PDF anywhere, nor are there any references to re-rolling. There is a single reference to rolling more dice in addition to the first roll (for a Righteous Success). The multiple re-rolling that you claim is a part of the basic mechanics is not.

You build one dice pool, roll it one time, compare results, remove all canceling dice and that determines your result. In the case of a Righteous Success, a player rolls one additional die and adds any subsequent result* to the current result pool.

You do not re-roll multiple times according to any information in the PDF or on the FFG site. This article and this PDF lay it out as I have, above.

*I assume that they mean further results of Success, as this roll follows a Success, but the PDF is not clear on this matter.