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D&D 3E/3.5 What 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition rules should be imported into 3.5e?

Loonook

First Post
I didn't say "local".
Knowledge is accumulated knowledge of a broad subject matter, not only relevant to day-to-day eating and drinking (which falls under Survival, not Knowledge).
Thanks for agreeing, though.

Now, I enjoy the snark, but the complete brushing over is also a nice touch.

I know the plants of pretty much any region in the US. I can field-dress most animals, track scat, know mushrooms well enough that, if absolutely necessary, I probably wouldn't die of poisoning (though field mycology is a very exact thing and my liver would never forgive me for trying to find Hen of the Wood and grabbing Ye Old Killer-o-man). I learned the animals, what is good to eat and what is not, and feel pretty comfortable from Pacific to Atlantic and be able to eat.

Of course this all came from going out and observing nature, and practicing skills of survival while doing it. Again... Survival works as a great substitute of Knowledge (Nature).

Again, put your snark away, and perhaps you'll pick up something useful from those of us with experience in the things that we're discussing :D.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

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Ashtagon

Adventurer
Also, I ask what OD&D or AD&D (any edition before 3.x) rules do you guys think should be imported into 3.x edition. I am even more unfamiliar with the earlier versions of the game so I want to hear about any good rules you 'old timers' just cant leave in the dust.

From BECMI: The War Machine mass combat rules (or possibly take those from Birthright). BECMI also had dominion rules, but they sucked; maybe Birthright had better ones.

From 1e: A decent system for recruiting hordes of cannon fodder mooks on the fly.
 

Dandu

First Post
Knowledge is theoretical. Int fits.

Survival is applied. Wis fits.

You don't learn about the various medicinal flora and fungi by studying biochemistry. You do not learn about biochemistry by picking interesting flora and fungi.
 

Sekhmet

First Post
Now, I enjoy the snark, but the complete brushing over is also a nice touch.

I know the plants of pretty much any region in the US. I can field-dress most animals, track scat, know mushrooms well enough that, if absolutely necessary, I probably wouldn't die of poisoning (though field mycology is a very exact thing and my liver would never forgive me for trying to find Hen of the Wood and grabbing Ye Old Killer-o-man). I learned the animals, what is good to eat and what is not, and feel pretty comfortable from Pacific to Atlantic and be able to eat.

Of course this all came from going out and observing nature, and practicing skills of survival while doing it. Again... Survival works as a great substitute of Knowledge (Nature).

Again, put your snark away, and perhaps you'll pick up something useful from those of us with experience in the things that we're discussing :D.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

I grew up in the woods of Northern Idaho. There is a very fine difference between SURVIVAL and Knowledge. Your argument can be boiled down to the idea that INTELLIGENCE is different than WISDOM. This is why they have been represented as different basic stats.
As Dandu just pointed out, Survival is more akin to Applied science (Wisdom), as opposed to Knowledge (Intelligence). What you describe is a narrow application, rather than the broad Knowledge represtend in the skill.

Following your implication, Knowledge: Engineering should substitute for Disable Device, and Spellcraft should substitute for UMD or Knowledge: Arcana. Tumble and Balance are interchangeable (as any Martial Artist will tell you), and any variety of other skills could be changed or folded into other skills.
 


Loonook

First Post
Following your implication, Knowledge: Engineering should substitute for Disable Device, and Spellcraft should substitute for UMD or Knowledge: Arcana. Tumble and Balance are interchangeable (as any Martial Artist will tell you), and any variety of other skills could be changed or folded into other skills.

okwiththis.png
.

Except for Architecture/Engineering, which doesn't really seem to fit with the vibe considering, you know, the actual realm of K(Architecture/Engineering).

Hell, I think that Knowledge (Religion) would be a great substitute for Turn Undead as a skill trick. Spellcraft, the skill that allows you to read magic, create diagrams, and identify items... Doesn't allow you to be able to press the button or say 'abracadabra'. Acrobatics and Athletics are actually great substitutions for the multiple skills created just to create a false parity in skill distribution.

These skills are artificial limits placed on abilities made to provide balance and a leveled increase in skills. Heal, which should quite obviously be an Intelligence skill (I don't patch up my nephew with gut instinct and perception)... But those who are traditionally 'healers' are Wisdom-heavy in D&D. So a Heal skill user is to a Doctor what Murrow is to Colbert.

Creating a false separation for symmetry is a keystone of 3.x and up... But this weird 'healing is a Wisdom based skill' thing dates back to Non weapon Proficiency. Now we moved forward from NWP in the fact that non-Rogues can jump/climb. We do, however, now have the need for the sacred cows of 3.x skills to be reformed, and the idea of specific, focused applications of limited skills could easily be placed into tricks off of these skills, and an appropriate amount of ranks/level to adjust for this change would actually allow for a much simpler Modular experience.

Kill Spellcraft, UMD, combine them into Knowledge (Arcana) or Spellcraft. Personally I'd go with Knowledge (Arcana), and add Druid to the class skill. You have allowed magic users to use each other's devices due to an intrinsic understanding of How Magic Works. You know when another individual is casting, and your years of theory have led you to understandings of how magic works in creatures, and some of the groups who wander about in the world. You've also allowed those who become trained in the ways of magic to actually be useful in their understanding as a minor skilled individual even if they take cross-class skills to do it.

Knowledge (Religion) is synergized with Turn Undead as is. Bonus feat for Clerics and Paladins of Turn Undead at the appropriate level, and allowance into the skill at Knowledge (Religion) 5 ranks. Increase the skill ranks required to appropriate for the skill, and make the effects CL -5 to CL +5. Turning Feats gain a Class Requisite, similar to Fighter-only feats like Weapon Specialization, or even as a Metaenergy feat for some.

This would allow you to Turn higher CR undead, and allows for the traditional 'brandish holy symbol to show your faith' to function for some. Druids, who consider undead anathema to the natural order, now get to affect them, and Van Helsing doesn't need to necessarily pack Cleric levels if he invests in the Feat at 3rd level. Improved Turning improves your check by +4, in accordance with other 'improved' feats.

Overall? A tempest in a teapot. The game gains a few options, the Turn Undead system doesn't suck so badly at upper levels, and Wizards can Wand o' CLW, and Druid and Wizard may Raise the Dead with a scroll that costs 6k GP using Knowledge (Arcana) while never learning the spells themselves. Also you have more room for skills to be added to the game as we collapse some of the silliness of the skill system while allowing for the archetype of the Vampire Hunter to not require a dip into Divine Exorcist/Acolyte of Peace/Cleric to gain a severely weak version of the skill.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
OD&D, AD&D, and/or 4th edition may offer some rules that would compliment 3.5 edition (such as skill challenges from 4th, although most DM's probably implement skill challenges anyway).

I don't know that any other edition has rules I would directly import to any other edition, but you can use ideas from prior editions to inform your design of house rules for each edition.

Honestly though, it is GURPS that provided the most inspiration for changes to my house rules for 3.0.

First, I much prefer 3.0 on the whole to 3.5. I did directly import a few fixes from 3.5 to 3.0, but for the most part I stayed with 3.0 as a better overall implementation than 3.5. So, if anything, if you are focused on 3.5 I'd first encourage you to look at 3.0 and figure out what you wantto use.

Things inspired by other editions:

1) Fouth Editions triple HD at 1st level: One of D&D's long running problems is that 1st level lacks granularity. There isn't that much difference in terms of hit points between a wasp, a rat, and a normal human. This results in the infamous house cat problem (the farm cat is far more dangerous than the farmer than owns him), and a tendency for 1st level characters in D&D to be a bit of glass cannons. I didn't like 4e's exact solution to the problem, but the slaying of the sacred cow did get me to thinking about the problem. Ultimately my solution leveraged a different D&D idea - size class. Instead of increasing the HD of 1st level characters, I gave all creatures bonus hit points according to size class. For example, a fine creature like a wasp recieves no bonus hit points, whereas a medium-sized one recieves an extra eight. This reduces grit slightly, but it solves the house cat problem, makes 1st level characters less of glass cannons (solving the rat in the basement problem), and solves the problem of large herbivores or whales requiring large HD and the associated large BAB and other sundry effects. And, as an added bonus from my perspective, it solves the 'Puss in Boots' problem in that that narrative of puss and boots where the cat tricks the ogre into becoming a fine sized creature now works under the rules.
2) Staying concious below zero hit points: Based on my house rules for GURPS, I changed the way things work when you are below 0 hit points. Specifically, you need only make a save to stay conscious on a round in which you take damage. This allows there to be a state in which you are actually wounded that lies between mortally wounded and well. Similarly, I expanded the range at which you are staggered upward into the positive hit points, so that for example, a character with 40 hit points becomes staggered (but not yet dying) when at 4 hit points or less.
3) Casting in combat is hard: Imported from the feel of 1e AD&D, I got rid of casting defensively and I removed the ability to take a 5' step AWAY from a target without provoking an AoO. Now, you always draw an AoO casting in melee, and if you step away from a target such that the target is no longer in your threat zon, you draw an AoO for doing so (this incidently, neatly explains why wizards use staffs). This helps improve the feel that casting in combat is hard (though I still think there is a ways to go, more on that later).
4) Being surrounded is bad: Imported from the feel of 1e AD&D, I've added several degrees of being surrounded beyond that of 'flanked' - namely 'surrounded' and 'encircled' - that add greater bonuses to the attacker. That's the closest I've come so far to restoring facing.
5) The 'mariner' class: The direct ancestor of my homebrew Explorer class for 3e is the 1e Mariner class from dragon. Like many of my homebrew classes, it is more generic than its ancestor (see Barbarian vs. Homebew Fanatic, Druid vs. Homebrew Shaman, Paladin vs. Homebrew Champion, Ranger vs. Homebrew Hunter), in this case losing the required fluff link to the ocean while still capable of making a 'sailor' if you want one (in the same that you can make a 'druid' using shaman, a paladin using champion, a barbarian using fanatic, etc.). It fills the niche of the skillful adventurer with good combat skills midway between a fighter and a rogue that I don't think stock D&D really fills. The archetype might be 'Indiana Jones' which is hard to make with a core class in D&D.

I've thought a long time about the things I would import from 1e that are missing in 3e - simultaneous resolution, weapon vs. AC modifiers, casting times, facing - and for the most part I've decided that while those things work in 1e and are good things in and of themselves, the extra complexity that they would add to combat isn't worth the benefit. Third edition adds a lot of extra heft to the rules as it is and if we also add additional complexity we might be sacrificing too much in other areas for the sake of realism. The only 1e style rule that remains on my consideration list is casting time. I haven't got enough of a sense of the balance between classes yet to make the call, but if I get the feeling that the spellcasters are still overshadowing the nonspellcasters then I'll probably bring casting time back.

There are things right now from Pathfinder that are under consideration for importing into the homebrew rules, particularly the much clarified language surrounding combat manuevers and oppurtunity attacks and the changes to the turn undead rules. I won't import these whole sale necessarily, but the ideas will influence what I produce. Again, you can't necessarily cut and paste rules between game systems, but you can mine game systems for ideas about how they handle things.

For now, most of the influences of 1e on my game is in the style. I use to run open dungeon crawl at the LFGS using basically the random dungeon generation tables in the DMG. I still admire 1e's ability to use random encounters, number appearing, percent in lair, and random treasure tables to create an interesting sandbox. I still admire the feel of 1e compared to modern games.
 
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