What ability should replace level drain? Here's a list.

[Dragonblade]

I hate level drain. Its a lame non-sensical player screwing metagame-based mechanic that should never have made the leap to 3e from 2e.

As a player who started with AD&D, one of the first things I house ruled out of my game was level drain, and I refused to play in any game that used it.

Pathfinder neutered it quite a bit, but its still there and still annoying. Vampires punching you and inflicting negative levels is ridiculous and doesn't reflect any vampire I have ever seen in literature not based off D&D itself.

4e actually fixed level drain and I hope it remains absent in 5e.

 

[DnD_Dad]

I actually like level drain a lot. It makes sense that a creature so full of negative energy or the fact that it is the embodiment of death itself would effect the living so powerfully. It makes the world a scarier place to be in, and forces players to think about their actions. They will only make the mistake of just opening a coffin with their bare hands once after a wight grabs ahold of them and LDs them. Adventurers are heroes and deal with such extreme situations that I feel that the newer editions take out because it is hard on inexperienced players or players that have a world served to them under the warm blanket of CR. These players, or DMs, don't realize that any action as an adventurer can and will eventually lead to death. Just saying.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I would suggest leaving level drain in, describing it as a general malaise. Level loss is simply a game mechanic to ascribe meaningful effect to constant chills, deep rooted pain, and a memory of echoing emptiness.... They have been touched by the grave, and have been lessened thereby.

Instead of getting rid of it try adding a duration, perhaps 30 - Con days, then allow a save at the end of the duration to regain a lost level. DC as the original save to avoid level loss.

The Auld Grump

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm going to be converting all the Ravenloft racial vampires to C&C and was thinking of converting the Ravenloft Nosferatu as the "human vampire" at the same time and just not having vampirism for any other races, or making a racial vampire template for the ones I might ever need.

 

[Stormonu]

Touch of the Grave is certainly what I'd go for, but I'm not a fan of draining levels - in that characters lose XP. I certainly believe it should be something scary; Inititially a Fort DC 10 + 1/2 CR of the creature. Failure means the victim is dropped to -1 hit points. On a success, the victim takes a cumulative -1 penalty "to hit", saves and skill checks. The penalty is treated like ability damage and can be reduced by 1 per day with rest or removed with restoration spells.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I never did like level drain for vampires. Doesn't fit what they do unless it's through the bite. And even then I would prefer they call it life drain or something with the same mechanic.

I like the mechanic as it does seem like your life is draining away on all levels in a way that ability drain or damage doesn't accomplish.

The nice thing about negative levels is they affect everything that could be tied to your spirit. Your ability to fight, your spell casting power, your healing power, your skills, your ability to lift things, and so and so on. It's like your whole life is draining out of you as you slowly die. I think the mechanic is very fitting.

Just doesn't fit vampire melee combat very well. Spectres I can understand and even wights. But I'd almost prefer it as a way of feeding on someone that was helpless rather than a hit in combat. Have the creature get you to the point of helplessness first, then drain your life away. That would be a more fitting way to do it in my opinion.

 

[steeldragons]

Think I'm firmly in the camp of Ability Drain being the substitute.

Don't get me wrong, the "old skooler" in me likes the utter panic and fear of actual Level drain. But the "old softie" in me is in the camp of not liking to take/make permanent changes to the PCs, specifically ripping away hard-won XP.

The aforementioned 2pts of Str. AND Con. per hit that, with enough accumulation could result, keeping realistic fear and panic in the story, in character death without permanently decreasing the character's abilities. Naturally, in addition to the ability drain, a PC could still easily be slain by straight HP damage.

That -2 would be for wraiths and wights, -4 from Spectres sounds right...As to Vampires...I'd really have to think about some more...Might keep the level drain there in that "life drain" way mentioned above. Keep the vampire a truly mythic and outright undesirable foe to all but the mightiest/most intrepid and/or prepared of heroes.

A recouping of 1 point (each of Str. and Con.) per day of rest keeps the effects still "long-lasting" and residual in a way that makes sense to me...still individually debilitating and possibly problem causing for the party (how many full days of rest can you get holed up in some side chamber in a dungeon?) Also makes/keeps the monsters credible and possibly life-threatening.

--SD

 

[Noumenon]

By the way, I strongly recommend the Am I the only one who doesn't like the D&D Vampire? thread, which touches on this topic.

Wish I could merge Reddit and Enworld so I could see the best posts in that without having to chug through the entire thread.

In 3E: Redefine energy drain so that one negative level means two points of ability damage to every ability. The short-term effect is almost the same -- a -1 penalty to everything -- and the lethality is similar -- roughly five negative levels means death -- but it avoids all the messy complications and permanence.

Five negative levels doesn't kill you, though. The lethality of Con loss is what's keeping me from accepting the ability drain suggestions.

I always used STR drain... When someone reaches 0 Str they are disabled and can't do anything (but remain conscious) and further draining goes to CON. At CON = 0 they turn into the appropriate form of undead themselves.

I'd almost prefer it as a way of feeding on someone that was helpless rather than a hit in combat. Have the creature get you to the point of helplessness first, then drain your life away. That would be a more fitting way to do it in my opinion.

Maybe I could merge these two suggestions. Have the undead do ability drain in startling amounts (like -6 Str at a whack) and then when helpless, start in on the level drain. Fearsome, but with plenty of warning.

One thing a lot of these suggestions are missing is the loss of your highest level spell -- that's a unique part of level drain. I would like it to happen at the same time as the Str loss, but the two abilities don't seem well linked. Wis drain would fit better with the spell slot loss, but unconscious is not as cool as helpless.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

D&D undead and their associated level drain were badly written from the start 30-some years ago. I would even say SHODDILY written. It similarly does not speak well of game designers who failed to improve their design ever since, opting instead to "remain true" to what was so poorly done in the first place.

I wrote a fair bit on the subject myself at Making Monsters but the applicable conclusion I came to tehre is that energy draining undead need to be redesigned from the bottom up. The Vampire is perhaps the worst offender of all. It still does not even drink blood in any way shape or form for any purpose. We've had a PLETHORA of different takes on vampires in recent history and virtually every one still follows the pattern first set down by Bram Stoker in Dracula - they drink blood.

Yeah, the old Energy Drain is scary but only because of the META-GAME implications of its effects. An arbitrarlly inflicted "screw you" to the player by taking away his characters earned xp and not giving it back. Even going to something like ability drain doesn't alter the fact that the D&D vampire is a designed as a dull melee combat brute, not a subtle and cunning evasive opponent as Stoker had envisioned.

Bad form. Very bad form. It doesn't even matter so much what you do but as monsters energy drainers scream for revision to give them some variation and IN-GAME raison d'etre.

 

[was]

cool..i hate level drains