What alignment is this? What would you do?

Iron_Chef said:
It's an interesting flaw of the alignment system that everyone so far has read the exact same evidence and each has come up with a different alignment to explain the behavior. I don't know who's right or wrong yet, LOL, but I'm glad the responses keep coming in, as all are welcome and helpful.

Granted, he's only as lawful as he needs to be, and only as chaotic as circumstances force him to be, so maybe Neutral is correct. He hasn't consistently leaned too far towards good or evil, maybe he's been trying to do good by doing evil, but never doing evil for evil's sake.

I imagine an alignment system in which everyone DOES agree what is Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic is kinda like eternal youth and unlimited wealth... pretty unattainable! The current system is flawed, perhaps, but it's not a flaw that could easily be mended.

As for the actual topic, his upbringing seems to suggest Lawful Good, his rebellious streak is pulling him in a Chaotic direction, and current events are pulling him toward True Neutral (ie: if he were Evil, these events would make him less so). The toughest thing to judge is if any of this is strong enough to merit an alignment change. My opinion is that the character might be LG, NG, or N.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Can't say I'm much in the mood for picking this thread apart bit by bit at the moment, so instead I'll just lend my comments as further number support, and perhaps come back and explain them at a later time.

Alignment:

True Neutral, with mild tendencies towards Chaos and Evil. He seems essentially motivated by self-interest without too much desire to harm others just for his own sake, and conversely, while he may more or less want to be a Law abiding citizen, he doesn't seem to overly trust the law in protecting him or in handling the situation as needed, and willing to perform fairly larcenous activities on top of that lack of trust. Presuming the gladatorial matches are also to the death, he also kills people for money and glory, which is pretty twisted in my book. The only redeeming part of that is he also puts himself on the line, and his opponent knows what he's in for.

Thus why he remains True Neutral, with only mild tendencies towards Chaos and Evil.
 

Actually, the first competition was subdual damage. The second event (days later) was lethal. The games are officially sanctioned public events and considered suitable entertainment for all ages (sports, movies, tv being the modern equivalent), and deaths in the arena are not considered a crime. Killing and spectacular combat moves in the games is considered an art form equal to any artist or bard. Being raised in that culture, growing up watching these games, knowing your father excelled in them, and constantly viewing public executions just outside your front door (the inn is located right next to the execution square) would make one rather densensitized to violence, and even to see it as a desirable, effective means of problem solving. Dueling (under certain conditions) is perfectly legal, and in fact, encouraged as the gentleman's way of settling disputes so as not to waste the court's time. Assassins and street scum can be hired to take care of one's enemies for a few coins. Justice, like people, can be bought and sold. Slavery and indentured servitude are legal and endorsed. Life is patently cheap, and ultimately no one is safe from slavery, murder or the chopping block. There is no real police force (just some inspectors solving major crimes of those of interest to the rich), only the army, which is used strictly for quelling riots and defending the city from foreign armies. Most everyone must rely on self-help to get out of trouble, form a Mob to exact street justice, or else hire bodyguards and mercenaries. As long as the target isn't wealthy or connected, there is little to no repercussion for any crime. The courts exist for the rich and powerful, and to make examples out of traitors and other major criminals (such as arsonists) who endanger the entire city. Someone growing up in this kind of society would have a very different outlook on right and wrong then someone living today. I don't think we can apply a modern morality spin on this aspect. Compared to his cultural norm, is he that evil?

Killing in the games where everyone knows what they are in for he has no problem with, including losing his own life. Killing outside the games, even in self-defense, he tries to avoid, and feels less comfortable with, though clearly he will do so to protect his own or his family's interests, or to protect his secrets (within reason).

The fact that he entered the games against his father's wishes (using his father's rival to facilitate this) does show a lack of respect for his father, but on the other hand, it was done because he idolized his father and wanted to be more like him, to experience what his father experienced when he was the same age, to be a great "artist" like his father, perhaps even greater (by proving his refinements to his father's fighting style were superior). All teenagers rebel to some extent, but this is a very grave sin in this culture to go against his father's wishes, and it is certainly grounds for disinheritance, or the father could even sell the son into slavery or legally kill him. The father, the head of the household, has absolute authority over his family, over his children and can do with them as he will, even kill them if they displease him; this is the law (more or less akin to Imperial Rome). So he's taken a huge gamble by doing this. He's been very careful to cover it up so far, and while some may have their suspicions, the only ones who could prove it have been sufficiently bribed or otherwise satisfied to maintain the secret. Quite frankly, he became instantly addicted to the roar of the crowd and the challenge of matching his wits against others in a fight to the death... as well as the fabulous prizes to be won.

Anyway, so he feels like he can't tell his father the truth even though he wants to, at least not yet. Besides, putting his father in the know about everything (including the tax collector) could put his father in danger, not just from the inspector's questions, but from the crime family. The less his father knows, the better, or maybe he's just being foolish?

The only way he could get the suspicious woman to talk to him without beating the crap out of her and waking the whole inn was to make that promise. He figured she'd just stolen something from a guest (which happens a lot) and he could get it back from her, slip it back into the guest's belongings and get rid of her, with no one being the wiser. It was all about protecting his inn's reputation. Nobody expects an assassin; the tax collector (seemingly) wasn't that important, and they had no other guests of any import that night. The crime family is known for keeping its word, and remembering its friends and enemies. It just seemed like good business to not antagonize them and try to resolve the situation quickly and quietly, since they might burn down his inn, murder his family, or ruin his business in some other way.
 
Last edited:

Iron_Chef said:
Being raised in that culture, growing up watching these games, knowing your father excelled in them, and constantly viewing public executions just outside your front door (the inn is located right next to the execution square) would make one rather densensitized to violence.
While true, that mostly means the society is Evil.

Iron_Chef said:
Compared to his cultural norm, is he that evil?

No, but D&D is not big on cultural relativism. By the norms of their cultures, orcs and goblins and kobolds aren't evil either.
 

Looks plain neutral to me, though he may not stay that way for long. This guy doesn't seem lawful to me. While he's not following his father's dictates, he's trying to follow in his footsteps. He may prefer law and order, but isn't willing to sacrifice for it. He seems fairly strongly moticated by his own welfare. He's not really dedicated to hurting others, but he's willing to kill for his own profit. He may not yet be evil, but he's headed that way.
 

AnthonyJ said:
...D&D is not big on cultural relativism. By the norms of their cultures, orcs and goblins and kobolds aren't evil either.

I'll second that. The only thing that matters much based on society in D&D, in my opinion, is the Law versus Chaos scale. A nobleman who rapes commonfolk and kills peasants who touches him in a society where that is both legal and socially acceptable would be essentially lawful. A nobleman who does the same where it is legal but considered not socially acceptable (and there is a difference), would start treading more towards neutrality and chaos. A nobleman who does the same where it's neither legal nor acceptable is acting in a chaotic manner. And in all instances, even if the culture accepts it, it is an evil act.

In general, Good and Evil are considered to be fairly universal. Orcs may live in a culture where murder, rape, assassination, glorifying death are all considered virtues (strength, dominance, etc), and therefore, all that is good by their standards, but it doesn't make them Good.

If Good were based on cultural morality, the alignment system could just as easily cut it back down to just Law, Chaos and Neutrality.

The individual is still True Neutral in my book, with tendencies towards Chaos and Evil. In light of how dire the consequences the individual may face for having gone into the arena, I'm even more strongly inclined to say he's Chaotic Neutral - wishing to impress your father and gain his respect isn't necessarily lawful, at least if you go about it in ways that are strongly against his wishes and those of society. In light of the fact that he might be disinherited or executed, I'd say the individual is leaning strongly towards Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies.
 

Iron_Chef said:
He has kept every agreement he ever made (except the one to his father to stay out of the arena), regardless of the consequences. That's pretty lawful.

Not really. As described, his motivations for keeping agreements have all been self-serving, and mostly out of fear of what might happen to him personally (or sometimes his family). Being scared into following an agreement doesn't make you lawful any more than being scared at the thought of killing someone makes you good.

There are basically two reasons why I'd say he's neutral - first, that he waffles between the alignment extremes in a general effort to do what's best for himself, and second that I think there really isn't enough there to hang a more active alignment on him. It looks like the responses that ascribe a more active alignment on him disagree on the second point, which is fine - everybody has a different threshold as to when actions become indicative of an alignment choice.
 

In his culture - a decadent society were Family honour means more than individual rights and violence and killing for sport is accepted as normal I'd say he was NG. (and personally I'd say that most people are).
BTW many responses above have cited him as acting in selfinterest - he isn't, he's acting in the interest of family -ie the natural group - and this is lawful! civil society is a myth!:D

But as mentioned DnD Alignment doesn't do Cultural relativism so on straight DnD I'd say he's NE
 


So his plan to get out of the arson charge is to stage a whirlwind romance for the ugly inspector with the female assassin (the same one who started this whole mess by murdering the tax collector at his inn). She will use knock out drops in his wine so he will not be present in court to present his charges, which will make him look foolish and according to the law, will result in an automatic acquittal. The inspector may also end up with a nasty venereal disease too, LOL. Simply killing the inspector outright did occur to him (almost immediately), but he rejected it as causing more problems than it would solve, and it would not necessarily clear him in court of the arson frame-up. Humiliating his enemy was by far the more sensible solution, though it will create an enemy for life who will doubtless return to cause more trouble. But that can be dealt with when it happens.

So, here he is, sinking in deeper and deeper with the crime family, or at least one of its members. She has alluded to having some personal "problems" she needs resolved quickly, which he assumes are financial in nature. Her price for helping the guy is 50% of the pirate treasure, should he find it, to which he had no choice but to agree. Of course, he doesn't think he's going to find it, though a lot of other people lurking around seem to think he knows where it is. He's being followed by the inspector's men, by wererat treasure hunters, and pirates, all hoping he will lead them to the treasure. The female assassin's timely appearance would seem another indication that she is using him to get to the treasure. When they went on a gondola ride to discuss the matter, it turned out the gondoleer was her man and "our hero" had a sudden frantic notion that he was going to end up in the bottom of the harbor with the tax collector for "knowing too much" about the tax collector's death... Fortunately, the wererats chose that moment to launch their ambush, so his suspicions were never proven (and may just be all in his mind, but it pays to be a bit paranoid in that city).
 

Remove ads

Top