What are gestalts?

[Storyteller01]

On something of a 3.5 boycott, but everyone's talking about them, so I'll bite...


What are they?

 

[Crothian]

its the combining off two classes into one and getting the better abilities of each class. Combine a Fighter/sorcerer you get the BAB of a fighter, HPs of a fighter, the good Will and Fort saves, fighter weapons and armor, fighter bonus feat, sorcerer spells, skill point soif either since they are the same but you combine the calss skills together.


It is a high powered rarely used option.

 

[reanjr]

I'll just add that the idea behind them is to run a game with a smaller than usual party. In practice, it's power gaming at its finest.

 

[Eolin]

I've used them. I kind of like my barbarian/sorcerer. Its a little ridiculous.

But really, what are they supposed to represent? Do we ever see in literature such characters, do they point to characters that feel like gestalt characters? Are there examples?

 

[FireLance]

Just to add a few more comments:
Gestalt characters were presented as an optional rule in Unearthed Arcana, and are meant to be a high-powered option. A gestalt character is not balanced with a normal character (obviously). It is also likely to overcome challenges with a CR equal to its level quite easily; the book suggests using challenges with a CR 1 to 2 points higher than normal, but to eyeball the challenges carefully since some higher-level challenges can be too dangerous even for a gestalt character.

This is not an option for an inexperienced DM, or a DM who does not like high-powered characters.

I think many people criticize gestalt characters without understanding what they are supposed to be for.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But really, what are they supposed to represent? Do we ever see in literature such characters, do they point to characters that feel like gestalt characters? Are there examples?

In fantasy context they would represent beings who are semi-divine or touched by gods. Maybe even demigods in their youth. Any of the "undefeatable at age 13" lot would be good candidates.

Lancelot (Fighter/Paladin?)
Paul Atreides (Swashbuckler/Diviner?)
Hercules (Fighter/?)
Ridley from Dungeons & Dragons: The Movie
Batman (??/??)

But you do have a reasonable point that most heroes from myth are really good at their schtick instead of surprisingly good at mutiple schticks like Paul Atreides or Batman happened to be. Odysseus was multitalented, but there is no need to hypothesis a special gestalt combo for him; call him a normal Swashbuckler/Fighter 3e multiclass, give him a high Int and high Str, and plenty of levels.

 

[FireLance]

I've used them. I kind of like my barbarian/sorcerer. Its a little ridiculous.

But really, what are they supposed to represent? Do we ever see in literature such characters, do they point to characters that feel like gestalt characters? Are there examples?

Most of Tolkein's elves. No, seriously. The original basic D&D elf was very much a gestalt Fighter/Wizard.

Great heroes of old who combined magic and battle prowess. I recall there was an ancient hero can't remember the name in Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea setting (referenced only on stories and songs about his exploits) who was described as a warrior-wizard. In the D&D game, this could mean, in terms of escalating power levels: a Fighter/Wizard; a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight; a gestalt Fighter/Wizard.

More generally, any character who exhibits high levels of skill in different disciplines can be represented as either a high-level character or a gestalt character.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Good point, FireLance.

As a high powered option it actually makes a lot of sense. It allows the DM to throw in carefully chosen high-power opponents while limiting the PCs to lower level abilities, albeit bushels and bushels of those lower level abilities. That is actually easier on the DM.

The downside is that some things like grappling and an unlucky PC saving throw can really level the playing field. The players and DM need to be sharp because there is a thinner line between cakewalk and TPK.

 

[Eolin]

Paul Atreides is a really, really good point. I had used him as an example to my players, but promptly forgot. He's something like a Mentat/Fighter/Bene Gesserit ... and that's before he's 16! Of course, then he multiclasses from fighter to Freme. Formidable, indeed. Later, he joins the prestige class Sand Rider.

And eventually becomes the first member of the prestige class Kwizatsch Haderach.

I still can't believe the Dune rpg expected you to play members of the Houses Minor!!! Such a bad decision.

As for Lancelot, I don't see why he woudn't be just a Paladin and not a Paladin/Fighter. I don't see how him being gestalt alters the flavor, but instead only the power. The same goes for the gestalt fighter/wizard mentioned, the gestalting doesn't seem to alter the flavor but only the power level, which is, imho, a Bad Thing.

So yeah, I'm still not quite getting what it represents. Maybe because people like Muad'Dib are so uncommon.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

We're using the Gestalt option for our game of two PCs but because there are only two PCs. Its really adds a lot...and I mean a lot...of different options, powers, and abilities, even at lower levels. They're not overwhelming, but it does take some time to sit down and ponder over the classes, especially if you're aiming for a PrC.

Of course we have yet to start...so this is all theory and some testing I've done by myself.

And there is something else to consider - some PrC's can open up a lot more quickly for Gestalt characters.

Otherwise, I've enjoyed them. They can last longer in a fight not because of having more HP, but because the fighter with Uncanny Dodge dodged the thief's initial Sneak Attack. (Note that they can last longer, but the fight doesn't last longer).

But watch out when Combos start coming into play, like a Fighter/Scout who goes into Dervish. Suddenly that Dervish dance is dishing out 5d6 against evil creatures with a holy scimitar per hit at a medium level. And if he's weilding two scimitars as light weapons with Weapon Finesse.

You get the idea.

Otherwise, it does speed combat up and combat seems to become more like high level combat that seems to open in a fury and end more quickly.