What are gods?

[Tsyr]

http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13533

In a recent thread (above) several people have justified an athiest character in a DnD setting by saying the character might not think the gods were gods, but just really powerfull outsiders.

That got me thinking.

Gods exist as an entity in DnD, not just a force. Even before they were stated in Deities and Demigods, gods had a... not exactly physicality, really, but they definetly existed as a thing, a being... not just a concept or power.

Gods in the DnD world are semi-mortal... there is ample evidence of gods being killed... Raistlin killed a ton of gods in an alternate-reality Krynn, and I shudder to think how many gods have died over the long history of the Forgotten Realms.

Gods in at least some DnD realms can loose their power (See FR and Dragonlance).

Gods in the DnD world don't always start out as gods... many started out as human. See Cyric, Raistlin (alternate reality, again, but still valid), Vecna, etc.

Gods are not infallible... they can be thwarted by mortals, they can be tricked by mortals and other gods (even lesser gods than themself), etc... again, see FR, DL, etc for examples of this.

Gods tend to exist outside OUR reality, but in some other reality (The abyss, vallhalla, whatever you want for the specific god).

----

Really, looking at that...

When you think about it...

Gods ARE just really powerfull outsiders. Where do you draw the line between "really powerfull outsider" and "god"? And where do demi-gods fall in the mix? Is it the ability to grant power to followers? What if an otherwise ho-hum outsider gained the ability to give power to a couple other people? Would that make him a god?

Go wild, people!

 

[Tsyr]

Now, I might be willing to grant that beings like Ao and Chaos might be above some of these... maybe they truely are gods, but they don't really grant people powers or have worshipers, as a rule...

And chaos at least seems to just be a more powerful version of his compatriots in Dragonlance... Much more powerful, but he still seems to have certain limitations... he was trapped for centuries, after all, by his children...

 

[Henry]

Really Fascinating post, Tsyr -- one that I can't let languish at the bottom of the pile.

Really, in D&D and in real life, a god is defined by its worthiness for worship. But what makes them worthy? Because they shepherd the perfection of some portfolio of life? Because they just give really cool powers in exchange for something else? It relaly depends on your outlook.

In the Forgotten Realms, gods are defined by one aspect -- every being on the planet has a given outlook on life, whether one of beneficence, of freedom, of tyranny, of desire for supremacy, or what have you; but each person's beliefs generally fall in line with one of the hundred-plus gods of Faerun; thus, your goals and those of the god are aligned.

A god CAN be a force to fall down and worship, terrible in its aspect if its demands for obeisence are denied;

...or, a god can be an unfailing companion on a journey, a source to turn to in turmoil, to gain aid and succor from, and to promote their goals, because they are, ultimately, your own. Many real-world Christians, Muslims, and Pagans take this view of the gods they worship. It sounds like Velendo's position with Calphas the Wallbuilder (from Piratecat's Story Hours) that he's taken after reaching the level of power he's reached - an almost Moses-like perspective of God from years of having known him and walked the path that has been requested of him.

In the end, a cleric of a D&D world would worship a god because of that path -- they give the god service, and the god helps them on a path that they both share.

 

[Tsyr]

What about demons, then? Surely many evil people (and argueably stupid people) serve/worship demons... look at books like Demonology... or heck, the drow in FR worship certain demons almost as much as they do Lloth... And the demons do return the favor, at times. Why are these not gods then, but that theory?

 

[SonOfLilith]

Thanx Tysr, I thought I was the only one who thought that way. but then, if you think about it, most polytheistic religions only have super-uber beings as gods. Take greek/roman. The god where not perfect, and didn't see everything. They could be killed, but very very difficultly (Cronos, but then again he's a Titan, but same thing). Also Egyption. Set choped Osiris up, and the Gods couldn't bring him back. The same thing holds true with all the other multi-god religions I can think of (I might be wrong, there are way too maney religions out there). Anyway, just an alternitive look at dnd theology.

 

[Lothaire]

It depends on wether your universes cosmology is absolute or relative.

If it is absolute, there is a certain real tangible difference between gods and powerful outsiders. Maybe Gods, have real true access to the fabric of the planes. Perhaps gods have certain knowledge that others do not. Etc.

If your world is relative, the only difference between Gods and say demons is that people who worship the gods are accepted, while those who worship demons are derided as cultists. Essentially the diffence between a God and a normal outsider is that the god has a large following and is commonly acknowledged as a god.

 

[Black Omega]

I always go back to the Vlad Taltos novels for stuff like this.

What is a God? A being of enormous power who cannot be controlled. A demon is a being of enormous power that can be controlled. And the Demon Goddess? Sorry, don't have time to answer that one.

 

[Nightfall]

Well I'm a virtual god. I mean I got my own forums! Even if they are hosted by someone else.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Check out some Planescape stuff. They've got a group of people who believe that the "gods" are just powerful beings who duped people into believing that they are all-powerful and stuff, and dead gods drifting on the Astral Plane.

My campaign has always gone with the "anthropomorphic personificiation" theme. It's not exactly like the basic D&D thing...

Pretty much, the gods are representations of forces in the world made by worshippers, and, as such, tend to resemble their worshippers.

So that story about how the elves were made from the blood of Correlon Larethian? All myth. The elves invented him themselves after they grew into a culture, and the story of them coming from his blood is just, in mythographic terms, their "claim to validity," them saying that they're worth something and that they are special because they've come from a god.

As for how someone might view gods in D&D....really powerful outsiders generally *are* gods. I think of it almost like the Olympian sense...they're just human beings (or elves or whatever) on a grand scale, a primal representation of some perspective our outlook, perhaps predating the outlook or object they represent, perhaps not.

Demons and devils can't hold a candle to the deities. Even the more powerful ones, by default, aren't near true gods in power. Sure, they're worshipped, sure they may pretend to give power or something, but, in the end, they give up a lot more of themselves than gods do.

Heck, gods probably don't even *need* to be worshiped to exist, at least by default. Think of primal deities or nearly-forgotten overlords or something of the sort.

In short, it probably is something every campaign should decide for themselves. See Deities and Demigods for some ideas, and run with 'em. See some real-world myths and some Planescape stuff to further the delve, if you wish.

IMC, it's all relative. There's no reason that both the Olympian and the Hindu deities can't exist and be real right alongside the Christian God.

O'course, it's all up to you, in the end.

 

[Gez]

IMC, a god is a powerful being that live on the moon and rule a part of it; who represent an ideal of life and who can grant spells (through a mystical channel linking earth and moon) to people with the same ideal worshipping him.

They can be killed, but it's not easy.

(Yeah, IMC, the outer planes are replaced by the moon. I found it just cool to take an astronomical spyglass and look at divine cities on the moon, at night. Also, it's kinda fun because the moon don't show always the same face, it's rotating relatively to the earth, so depending on the day it's a deity or another that's the nearest to the earth and that can influence several things. Finally, a verdant, inhabited planet with seas and forests and clouds and illuminated cities is a thing even more beautiful thing to look at than a barren rock. At least IMHO.)