What are gods?

[Tsyr]

In the case of the greek gods... They really didn't have a concept of the existance of other planes of reality with people inhabiting them, IE, outsiders. The greek gods were gods because they were beings of immence power, not because they granted spells to their followers or anything.

And I don't know how to answer the moon thing, I was really only thinking fairly standard DnD cosmology here.

There are tons of reasons why people would think something was a god, and why they would worship it, etc, but this thread was actualy meant in a more metagame sense... What is the defining trait of a god? Is it the ability to massivly alter reality? A wizard or a sorc can do that... not as massivly, sure, but they can. Is it the ability to grant spells to something else? Then, if a being existed that was basicly a normal human, but had the ability to grant one other person divine spells, would he be a god?

 

[Henry]

A god in D&D terms is a being who has the ability to grant the ability to heal living things, or to return life to the dead, to others without artifice or other means of transference.

A bard, while being themselves able to heal, are unable to transfer this to others without means of scroll or magic item.

A wizard or sorcerer cannot heal, nor have the means to transfer such.

A cleric can heal others, but cannot do so without the sanction of a patron they worship.

Rangers and paladins, again, can heal but cannot transfer this by fiat. Paladins must have a patron of some sort as well, even if some force or philosophy.

The only beings or forces who can do this by the existing WotC D&D rules are gods.

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That's the technical definition, but the only one I see that fits existing rules.

 

[Gez]

Simply put, gods are being of immense power.

In D&D, wizards can alter reality with their spells. Therefore, gods needs to be far more powerful than a level 20 wizard to be of immense power.

The greek gods didn't needed to grant spells to be gods: they could sire all sorts of strange creatures, command to the elements, decide fate, and were quite impossible to defeat in combat. This was enough to make them gods.

Imagine there's a temperamental Druid 20 near a D&D village where the maximum level is 5. The druid can basically lay waste to the settlement, creating earthquake if he's angered, boosting growth if he's happy, etc. He's quite impossible to defeat in combat (if he ever had any trouble, he could wildshape into a bird and fly far from human reach, or into a water elemental and plunge in a river and be considered totally unreachable, etc.). And he's immensely powerful compared to the rest of the world (less than level 5). Even if he can't grant spells, he can be worshipped by the villagers.

Now, maybe that would not meet the standard D&D requested behavior for a druid; but anyway...

So, if you define a god (or goddess) by a being who is worshipped as such by people, anything, even a rusted nail, can be a god.

The D&D definition is being someone who is capable of granting spells to followers and who has a divine rank of at least 1according to the rules in Deities & Demigods.


PS: No need to answer about the moon, I was just explaining a bit my homebrew cosmology.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Gods are your enemies. Kill them

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I think part of the problem is in the way Gods are described in DnD.

Too often they are conniving manipulators that seem to go well beyond their allotted roles.

Think about it this way, in theory every time their is a major thunderstorm in FR there should be Talos up there personally throwing down the lightning and creating the thunder. He is after all the God of Storms.

 

[Zappo]

Heh. I think that's one of the reasons for which Planescape regularly calls them "powers". Another reason, of course, is that TSR was afraid of fundies... but still.

Anyway, usually a god in D&D is any being that can grant spells to its clerics. And yeah, if you are used to the christian/jewish/muslim concept of God, you can easily think it doesn't really fit. The problem with omnipotent beings is that you can hardly have more than one - otherwise, what happens if they don't agree on something? So the gods in D&D aren't omnipotent, they have limits too. They depend on their worshipers' faith, and they can be killed. They are just incredibly powerful outsiders.

On the other hand, gods do have a qualitative difference from, say, a 95 HD 20th level sorcerer/15th epic Balor. Rulewise, they can grant spells, as said. The aforementioned Balor could likely smack a few lesser gods around, provided that gods in your campaign have stats, but he can't grant spells. Then, gods are the living embodiment of a concept. They are that concept, on a certain level, and so people who adhere to that concept worship them, and this gives them power.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Tsyr---

Where do you draw the line between "really powerfull outsider" and "god"?

It depends on the specific multiverse created. In some campaigns, the gods created the universe and are untouchable. In others, they are really powerful outsiders that can be killed. And in some, the gods can be killed and they created the universe. (Gods can be contradictory.)

I guess what I'm saying is that the DM has the perfect right to define what a "god" is, and no rulebook can overrule that power.
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I really think that this choice is crucial to the campaign world. In, FR, for example, the gods can walk the lands and care about worshippers. In others, gods do not need worshippers to gain power. They instead kill other gods for power, and worshippers provide the cannon fodder. And sometimes, mortals are the playthings of the gods, and worshippers only gain power at the whim of the god in question.

Anyway, just my humble opinion...

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I'm a fan of the "if it grants spells, its a god" school of thought.

That said, if GodA doesn't grant spells to all its members and PowerB smites unbelievers on a regular basis it would be hard to tell the difference.

I realize I'm making the divine sound like a cosmic mafia, but there you have it.

 

[333 Dave]

What is a god?

Good question . Not wanting to spoil any secrets, you'll have to wait till I'm done Worldbook II (which is looking further and further off) before you get the definitive answer to that question as far as New Dawn is concerened

 

[hong]

Think about it this way, in theory every time their is a major thunderstorm in FR there should be Talos up there personally throwing down the lightning and creating the thunder. He is after all the God of Storms.

... and before that he was a titan in Greek myth, a predecessor of the gods. Having gods chuck thunder and lightning around seems perfectly consistent with such a mythos.