What are Minions anyway?

[hong]

With guns maybe which are not that common in D&D.
To be skilled with a sword (attack) you need to train very long, the same goes for parrying (defenses).

Pish tosh, my boy. Machetes, clubs and spears are used all over the world to do nasty things to people. It is very easy to beat someone with a stick. It is not so easy to get up after being beaten with a stick. Especially if the stick has a sharp end.

And HP do not represent physical health but morale and endurance and it is very unlikely that someone highly skilled who had to train for a long time lacks endurance or morale.

This sentence is no fun to deconstruct. The target lacks both morale and endurance.

But you can't fulfill the power fantasies of the new D&D target group with real enemies so minions are needed.

Pah. I need no minions to exercise my TEN INCH TITANIUM PENIS.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Pah. I need no minions to exercise my TEN INCH TITANIUM PENIS.

So when you said you loved mike mearls with every inch of your body, including your peepee... oh my.

 

[Baka no Hentai]

With guns maybe which are not that common in D&D.
To be skilled with a sword (attack) you need to train very long, the same goes for parrying (defenses). And HP do not represent physical health but morale and endurance and it is very unlikely that someone highly skilled who had to train for a long time lacks endurance or morale.

But you can't fulfill the power fantasies of the new D&D target group with real enemies so minions are needed.

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. You do not believe that it is logical that a commoner might be trained well enough to hit someone with a club, but then be unable to take a sword wound without being completely out of the fight?

If anything, that makes *more* logical sense than in 3E, where high level commoners could take any number of hits before going down.

It all comes back to that "threat of death" and what kind of threshold each creature has for it. Any conscripted soldier can be trained to use his weapon and to defend himself with his shield, however when it comes to the instant where the enemies blade is swinging true, will they have the quick wit, reflexes, endurance, or pure luck to turn an otherwise killing blow?

Most humans would not be able to. PCs, however, (and to some extent non-minion NPCs) are heroic... they represent the top echelon of people that have that certain something that helps them survive in a situation where anyone else would be cut down.

Minions make up the majority of non-monstrous humanoids. They are the "Glass Jaws" of D&D... sure they can land a punch or two, they can duck and weave a bit, but all it takes is one solid right hook to the head and they are down for the count.

 

[Derren]

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. You do not believe that it is logical that a commoner might be trained well enough to hit someone with a club, but then be unable to take a sword wound without being completely out of the fight?

Imo it is not logical that a (higher level) minion has the attack bonus and defenses necessary to compete with equal level heroes but is then not able to withstand a single "hit".

To become really good with a weapon requires training and it is reasonable to expect that a minion which isn't strong only because of birth went through a great deal of training and battles to get to the level he is now.
But as HP represent morale and endurance it simply makes no sense that this highly trained minions, despite their training, have next to no morale and endurance.
Either you have conscripted commoners who are hardly effective with their weapon, can't really parry everything and run away or drop as soon as they get wounded or highly trained soldiers who are masters with their weapon and can survive a lot longer on the battlefield.
What does not make sense is that you have conscripted commoners who are masters with their weapon and run away/drop after a single hit and highly trained soldiers which are masters with their weapons yet don't survive any longer on the battlefield than a conscripted commoner.

 

[hong]

Imo it is not logical that a (higher level) minion has the attack bonus and defenses necessary to compete with equal level heroes but is then not able to withstand a single "hit".

This is because you have become inured to the D&D ideal that people can stand toe-to-toe with each other and trade blows for ages. Clearly you need to play less D&D.

But as HP represent morale and endurance it simply makes no sense that this highly trained minions, despite their training, have next to no morale and endurance.

They have plenty of morale and endurance. Unfortunately, because they are realistic people, they don't know how to apply it well.

Either you have conscripted commoners who are hardly effective with their weapon, can't really parry everything and run away or drop as soon as they get wounded or highly trained soldiers who are masters with their weapon and can survive a lot longer on the battlefield.

There is no fun deconstructing this sentence. It lacks both morale and endurance.

What does not make sense is that you have conscripted commoners who are masters with their weapon and still run away/drop after a single hit and highly trained soldiers which are masters with their weapons yet don't survive any longer on the battlefield than a conscripted commoner.

They can survive much longer than the conscripted commoner. This is because they are skilled enough to hit first, not because they can get hit more times.

Play less D&D.

 

[Ian O'Rourke]

Interesting discussion, but then I always find these discussions interesting. I remember the one on RPGNet about minions that moved into all sorts of heavy topics.

Ultimately it's a dramatic reality set-up, and if you can accept it like that then you lose much less sleep. Not saying you have to, but since I'm happy with it modelling action movies and the like, it causes me less concern.

Remember: one ninja is scary, 10 ninjas are an excuse to let loose. Or so action movies tell us.

 

[Rex Blunder]

But you can't fulfill the power fantasies of the new D&D target group with real enemies so minions are needed.

By my count, everyone in this thread likes minions except Derren. So this sort of seems like it's purposefully dissing everyone in the thread. Nice one, Derren!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

By my count, everyone in this thread likes minions except Derren. So this sort of seems like it's purposefully dissing everyone in the thread. Nice one, Derren!

Funny, I first read everyone in this thread is a minion except Derren. It seems to me, as if my hit points are getting low in this heroic battle about Minions as a sensible tool to the game...

I dislike using 3E rules as an example, but I'll do it anyway:
Why do Dragons get a d12 HD and full BAB, but Outsiders get d8 HD and full BAB?
Why do Skeletons get 1/2 BAB, but 1d12 HD?
Why does the Fighter get 1d10 HP, but Barbarians 1d12, and Rangers 1d8?

If you could accept it (or found it even sensible?) in 3E, that's what is working for Minions, too. They have a smaller HD, but a good BAB, and as much HD as their opponents.

Another, more simulationist explanation:
Minions might be well trained, but they lack the actual experience. In combat training, there is barely a risk of dying. If your sparring partner hits you with his blunt, mostly harmless training weapon, you take not and learn how to hold your shield different, or how to better parry the blow. But the Minion doesn't have to learn how to evade this blow that bypassed his normal parry/block/shield use attempts and turn it into a less serious blow - his trainers don't care about that, since they only look whether the enemy gets beyond their defenses in the first place.

PCs, NPCs, and Monsters with "full" hit points are often exposed to actual hits. They learn how to roll with serious blows, since they are more often exposed to those then to sparring blows.

 

[Baka no Hentai]

Imo it is not logical that a (higher level) minion has the attack bonus and defenses necessary to compete with equal level heroes but is then not able to withstand a single "hit".

To become really good with a weapon requires training and it is reasonable to expect that a minion which isn't strong only because of birth went through a great deal of training and battles to get to the level he is now.
But as HP represent morale and endurance it simply makes no sense that this highly trained minions, despite their training, have next to no morale and endurance.
Either you have conscripted commoners who are hardly effective with their weapon, can't really parry everything and run away or drop as soon as they get wounded or highly trained soldiers who are masters with their weapon and can survive a lot longer on the battlefield.
What does not make sense is that you have conscripted commoners who are masters with their weapon and run away/drop after a single hit and highly trained soldiers which are masters with their weapons yet don't survive any longer on the battlefield than a conscripted commoner.

However, do we have any evidence to suggest that you will ever come across a minion of various levels for one race? My assumption would be that all human minions are level 1. For them to go beyond that, they would no longer be a "minion" any more as they have reached that threshold where they can survive a single encounter relatively unscathed, and thus would advance into an appropriate NPC class.

If my assumption is correct, then the only "higher level" minions would be members of a race that is generally higher level than humans are. Take for example the vampire spawn... these creatures would be downright deadly to any normal person, and their ability to do harm to others is naturally higher than most common humanoids. However, they are not very reselient to damage... perhaps, maddened by hunger, vampire spawns tend to go for the kill regardless of whether that leaves themselves open to getting staked through the heart.

If the vampire lives long enough to over come their bloodlust, their power will increase drastically as they will not only have the natural combat ability of the spawns, but they will also have the common sense not to put themselves into unneccesary danger when dealing with their foes.

Now, perhaps I'm wrong and we'll see stats for Level 5 Human Minions... and in that case I will agree that it doesnt make much sense.

 

[Derren]

However, do we have any evidence to suggest that you will ever come across a minion of various levels for one race? My assumption would be that all human minions are level 1. For them to go beyond that, they would no longer be a "minion" any more as they have reached that threshold where they can survive a single encounter relatively unscathed, and thus would advance into an appropriate NPC class.

That would work logically, but it would drastically reduce the usefulness of minions. Still its (imo) better than the other alternative.