What are some good House rules for fixing Tumble?

[Forrester]

It's never made sense to me that it's as easy to Tumble past (or through) a blind kobold as it is to Tumble past a Great Red Wyrm; I've also heard it argued that there should be some way for folks *with* Tumble to "counter-Tumble" in some way; I'm not sure this makes sense, but the idea that some skill allows one to "pick off a Tumbler makes sense, and maybe that skill should indeed be Tumble.

Long story short (too late): what are some good House rules for "fixing" Tumble?

 

[Jaligard]

They post a variant rule for opposed Tumble checks in Song & Silence (and apparently one in Sword & Fist, too, but this one is here in front of me and the other one is on my bookshelf--granted, only five feet away, but it's Saturday morning and I feel lazy).

Basically, the tumbler moving through threatened squares makes a Tumble check which is opposed by the defender's Reflex save. (Which is odd because Saves are always used to avoid things and not accomplish things--maybe you're avoiding losing the attack of opportunity?) Tumbling through the defender's space grants the defender a +10 bonus to his Reflex save. If the tumbler doesn't roll high enough on the PH chart (i.e., fails the tumble check), then the defender gets his attacks of opportunity anyway.

I like this idea in theory. I'll have to see it in practice. Tying it to a Reflex save is nice because very few monsters that I know of have Tumble and dragons have average Dexterities. Since you can ramp up your Tumble skill faster than someone can ramp up the ir Reflex save, though, it may not work so well.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

It's never made sense to me that it's as easy to Tumble past (or through) a blind kobold as it is to Tumble past a Great Red Wyrm;

Because all tumbling does is keep you from opening yourself to an attack on your round. Attacks of opportunity are based on the defender, not the attacker (with the exception of the Rogue's opportunist ability) -- you might as well ask why it's as easy to cast defensively against a kobold or a Great Red Wyrm.

(of course, it isn't, because if you fail the Wyrm has a much better chance of getting you, for more damage, then the blind kobold. But that's true for tumble as well.)

Long story short (too late): what are some good House rules for "fixing" Tumble?

Now that I've gone off about how it's not broken here's some thoughts about how to make it scale...

- Convert it to a dodge bonus of some sort versus the AoO... Maybe a +8 on success, with the same DC to move through an opponent's space.

- A Reflex save versus the Tumble check to block movement through an opponent's space could work, but I wouldn't make that an auto-AoO (unless used in conjunction with the dodge bonus)

- Or, just make the DCs variable... 10 + Opponent's BAB to tumble, 20 + Opponent's BAB to tumble through... (Not sure if those numbers are scaled appropriately... Adjust as needed.)

 

[Spatula]

Here's a simple idea that I like although it hasn't been playtested: let the Tumble check result replace the tumbler's AC if the check result is higher. If you're tumbling through someone else's square, you get a -5 to your check.

When used like this, Tumble doesn't negate AoOs, it just (potentially) makes the tumbler harder to hit when the tumble-ee makes its AoO.

 

[Stalker0]

We use opposed tumble checks IMC and that helps. You could do any opposed attack roll vs tumble check, that's a way to allow high level fighters a chance to get the tumbling rogue.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

We use a slightly different variant from Song & Silence for Tumble and Concentration. The PC makes his Tumble/Concentration check (DC 15. . 25. . whatever). The monster then gets a Reflex save against the tumble/con roll. If the monster makes the save he gets an AoO but the PC gets +4 dodge bonus to his AC. This way the PC doesn't get off free for making their Tumble roll, but if the monster makes its save the PC still gets some residual value for actually making the initial roll.

 

[Destil]

Here's a simple idea that I like although it hasn't been playtested: let the Tumble check result replace the tumbler's AC if the check result is higher. If you're tumbling through someone else's square, you get a -5 to your check.

When used like this, Tumble doesn't negate AoOs, it just (potentially) makes the tumbler harder to hit when the tumble-ee makes it AoO.

I do something much like this. Subtract 10 from your Tumble result, and add the result (if positive) to your AC against attacks of oppertunity as a dodge bonus.

 

[Relic]

I use the Tumble check becomes the tumbler's AC variant. I like this method because it

• 1) takes Tumbler's skill into account and is scalable. As a Tumbler becomes better at tumbling his effectiveness at using tumbling likewise becomes better. A flat DC of 15 (or 20, or 25... or whatever you set the DC at) is wasted when you have a +15 or a +20 to you tumble check. With the tumble check becoming the AC, no matter the bonus to your tumble skill it will always be useful.
  
• 2) takes opponent's combat skill into account. The more skilled combatant (read: higher base attack bonus) is more likely to respond to and prevent manuevers against him, including opponents tumbling past him. It gives fighters an edge in combat (where all of their edges should be) and the skill factor is already in place by using the BAB (which means fighters do not have to spend their precious few skill points on tumble for the purposes of just countering tumbling opponents).
  
• 3) is simple and very easy to use. Attacks of Opportunity always occur, the AC is the tumble check... simple. I do not think it needs further explanation.

It works without any problems in my game and all my players like the rule.

 

[Forrester]

[*]3) is simple and very easy to use. Attacks of Opportunity always occur, the AC is the tumble check... simple. I do not think it needs further explanation.
[/list]

It works without any problems in my game and all my players like the rule.

It's a little odd that a tumbler gets the same AC whether he's wearing mithril chain or he's naked.

I have to say, I like the "Take the check, subtract 10, add it as a Dodge bonus" idea. It double-counts the tumbler's dex bonus, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. (I would even make it so that if you Tumble poorly -- i.e., you roll a one and only have one rank -- you are actually a little easier to hit than normal. Looks like you blew the somersault . . . )

Of course, the Reflex save makes sense too -- the question is, which should be the deciding factor on the other end: BAB, or the opponent's dex/HD? Given the way 3E works, I'm inclined to say BAB.

 

[hong]

It's a little odd that a tumbler gets the same AC whether he's wearing mithril chain or he's naked.

Remember that mithril chainmail has an armour check penalty, which would be deducted from the Tumble check.