Pathfinder 2E What Are The Changes In Pathfinder Remastered?

There has been a lot of information floating around about Paizo's upcoming Pathfinder Remastered project on the new product pages on Paizo's website, and posts on Paizo's blog. Additionally, over on Reddit MrHappyTwinkles has posted a list of changes, compiled from various sources, and Twitch streams hosted by Paizo and by the Roll For Combat channel. You can watch the full streams at the links below for more detail, but here are the compiled notes.

Each book now has a product page over on Paizo's website.

Pathfinder Player Core
PZO12001.png



The Pathfinder Player Core presents a new entry point to Pathfinder Second Edition, with everything a player needs to learn how to play the game! Choose from eight ancestries, eight complete character classes, and hundreds of feats and spells to make unique characters ready for deadly adventures in a world beset by magic and evil! This 464-page hardcover tome is the definitive rules resource for all Pathfinder Second Edition players!

Pathfinder Player Core is the first core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the GM Core, Monster Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Player Core includes:
  • Easier to Learn! We’ve taken feedback from the Beginner Box and the Core Rulebook and made this new entry into the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game easier to navigate and get right into the fun.
  • Complete character creation rules, walking you through building a character by selecting your Ancestry, Background, and Class, with a focus on the bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, and wizard! Core ancestry options include human, dwarf, elf, gnome, goblin, halfling, leshy, and orc!
  • A mountain of options allowing you to customize your character including versatile heritages, like the changeling and nephilim, skills and feats, and hundreds of spells (including dozens of new ones), ensuring that the character you build represents your hero not just in story, but in rules as well!
  • Everything you need to know to start playing, from advice on how to explore the world to tips on surviving deadly combats with terrifying foes.
  • A primer on the world of Lost Omens so that your character can be a part of an exciting and diverse world!
  • Rules and tools to advance your character through play, taking them from a fresh-faced adventurer ready to take on the world to a veteran hero, wielding powerful magic that can reshape reality!
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including revisions to the witch, expanded options for every character class, streamlined spells, new equipment, and more!
  • This is the first Pathfinder product published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.


Pathfinder GM Core
PZO12002.png

Unleash your imagination, creating worlds and stories beyond measure with the new Pathfinder GM Core for Pathfinder Second Edition! This comprehensive 336-page hardcover rulebook gives Game Masters everything they need to craft thrilling tales of adventure, from a single-night’s dungeon delve to complex epics spanning years. Within these pages you’ll find clear guidelines for creating new hazards and monsters, tools to design challenging, balanced encounters, and rules for rewarding characters for the dastardly challenges you array before them! Pathfinder GM Core also contains a dragon’s hoard of magic items and treasure to entice and reward your players, from simple healing potions to magic weapons and armor and legendary artifacts, including dozens of brand-new items!

Pathfinder GM Core is the second core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, Monster Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder GM Core includes:
  • The rules needed to run a game of Pathfinder, including guidelines for creating challenging encounters, determining success, and giving out rewards.
  • Advice aimed at making you an incredible Game Master, along with tools to ensure you and everyone else at your table has a safe and enjoyable experience.
  • Guidelines to help you create your own content, from campaigns and adventures to hazards and monsters.
  • Rules subsystems to help you handle a wide array of game situations, including rules for chases, duels, research, infiltration, and more!
  • A guide to the world of Lost Omens, with a look at several important regions, an examination of the peoples and cultures of the world, and a glimpse into what lies beyond the veil of the universe!
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including improvements to staves and talismans and all-new apex magic items!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.

Pathfinder Monster Core
PZO12003.png


Heroes are defined by their foes—from shambling skeletons to terrifying dragons, each enemy leaves a mark on their growing legend. Make your legends memorable with foes from the new Pathfinder Monster Core rulebook for Pathfinder Second Edition! This 376-page hardcover book is packed with a wide range of monsters useful to all Pathfinder campaigns, giving the Game Master plenty of threats to throw at their adventurers, at any level of experience. The lavishly illustrated tome also includes guidelines for reading monster entries and adjusting existing monsters to tailor fit your story! This is the definitive resource for Pathfinder Second Edition monsters!

Pathfinder Monster Core is the third core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, GM Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Monster Core includes:
  • Over 400 individual monster writeups, including everything from common animals, like wolves and bears, to terrifying supernatural foes, such as the rune giant or the grim reaper!
  • Eight brand new dragons to challenge your players, including the power-hungry fortune dragon, the peerless adamantine dragon, the mischievous mirage dragon, the fiendish diabolic dragon, and more!
  • Classic monsters drawn from mythology, like the minotaur and the medusa, as well as creatures drawn from the legends of the Lost Omens setting, including favorites like the wicked sinspawn and unpredictable proteans.
  • Simple templates that allow you to customize a monster, making it more or less powerful with just a few simple adjustments.
  • Guidelines for reading and using a monster statistics, ensuring you get the most out of a creature both in and out of combat.
  • Lists of creatures sorted by both type and level, making it easy to find the monster you need when you need it.
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including new balance adjustments to ensure that every creature presents a thrilling level-appropriate challenge!
  • Hundreds of beautiful full-color creature illustrations!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.

Pathfinder Player Core 2
PZO12004.png


Survival in a world beset by magic and evil takes more than a lucky roll of the dice. Pathfinder Player Core 2 significantly expands options available to Pathfinder players, giving them the edge to take on any adventure. This 320-page hardcover rulebook remasters 8 classes from Pathfinder Second Edition, providing everything you need to create a wide array of new characters, ready to take on the world. It also includes more than 40 archetypes, expanded ancestries, and tons of feats, spells, and alchemical items to provide a near-endless array of exciting options for every Pathfinder character! The ideal character option resource for players looking to move beyond the Pathfinder Player Core.

Pathfinder Player Core 2 is the fourth core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, GM Core, and Monster Core, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Player Core 2 includes:
  • Eight fully detailed classes, including the alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler, each containing multiple character paths, multiclassing options, and dozens of feats!
  • Expanded ancestry options include the catfolk, gnoll, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, ratfolk, and tengu, alongside three versatile heritages—the dhampir, duskwalker, and an all-new heritage debuting in this volume!
  • More than 40 archetypes, allowing you to further customize your character’s story and abilities. Turn your hero into an aerial acrobat, a high-riding cavalier, a treacherous pirate, and so much more!
  • Spells, alchemical items, and magic items to round out the new classes and to provide some new tricks to the classes from Pathfinder Player Core.
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including a revised alchemist, champion, and oracle!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.


Twitch Stream Notes & More
Over on Reddit MrHappyTwinkles has posted a list of changes, compiled from various sources.


OGL-Based Changes​

  • “Spell level” terminology being changed to “Spell rank”
  • Ability scores going away; they’re just going to become Ability Modifiers now.
    • +1, +2, +3
  • Alignments are now going to be Edicts and Anathema.
    • Aligned damage now becomes Holy/Unholy.
  • OGL Spells are being renamed/replaced.
  • Nephilim replacing Tiefling/Aasimar and other Planar descendants.

Revisions​

  • Witch (Class)
  • Champion (Class)
  • Oracle (Class)
  • Focus Points (System)
  • CONFIRMED ROGUE MARTIAL WEAPONS, WIZARD GETS SIMPLE WEAPONS (Mechanics)

4pm Stream​

Twitch Stream (4pm EST)
Notes will be cleaned up post stream

Player Core​

November 2023
  • Character creation, game rules, conditions
  • Bulk of ancestries
  • 8 classes (*listed here Pathfinder Player Core)
    • Bard
    • Cleric
    • Druid
    • Fighter
    • Ranger
    • Rogue
    • Witch
    • Wizard
  • Core rulebook -> Player Core 1
  • QoL / Rewording spells, also new spells

  • Witch revisions
    • Witch interactions with patron
    • Emphasizing familiars
    • Hex mechanic changes
  • Nephilim
    • Taking the place of planar scions, versatile heritages
    • Demon, angel ancestry falls under here now
  • Alignment Edicts and Anathema
    • Edicts and Anathema will be used in its place as part of character creation
    • Optional element to characters
    • Holy/Unholy damage

GM Core​

November 2023
  • Magic items are going into GM Core from Player sourcebooks
    • New items
    • Category changes
  • Crafting changes
  • Advice from Game Mastery guide going into GM Core
  • Building adventures/campaigns
  • Subsystems from GMG, vehicles, chases, victory points
  • Free archetype rules
  • Variant rules are going in here too
  • Treasure section/chapter
    • Treasure vault system as base
  • Age of Lost Omens core rulebook info going into GM Core as a setting chapter
  • Talisman changes
    • Expanded on panel at PaizoCon

Monster Core​

March 2024
  • Bestiary 1 content, with some Bestiary 2 and 3
  • OGL monsters and problematic™ monsters being removed
  • Djinni/Genies
  • Dragons yay
    • Magical traditions being used as a base
      • Arcane
      • Divine
      • Primal
      • Occult
    • Confirmed names of dragons listed on Pathfinder Monster Core product page
    • Omen Dragon
  • Possibly a Monster Core 2

Player Core 2​

July 2024
  • Archetypes in Advanced Player’s Guide
  • Ancestries from other books going into PC2
    • Hobgoblin
    • Lizardfolk
    • Catfolk
    • Gnoll renamed to Kholo
    • Kobold
    • Ratfolk
    • Tengu
  • Versatile Heritages
    • Dhampir
    • Duskwalker
    • New unannounced heritage
  • Class Revisions
    • Alchemist (Full rework)
    • Champion (Changed from alignment)
      • Some thematic restrictions for champions
  • Alchemical Items

Q&A Content​

Q: How are Gods changing with alignment?
A: Gods that care heavily about “alignment” will remain strict about it, sounds like case by case thing

Q: Troop rules in Monster Core?
A: No. New troops in Rage of Elements though.

Q: Will there be revisions to the Beginner Box?
A: Revisions are minimal; no new BB edition yet. Revised intro product at some point.

Q: Conversion guide?
A: Term primer, resources for translating should be out there.
Example: Feat for alignment damage would get a nuanced change contained within whether or not it’s a feasible quick change

Q: Partnered content?
A: Remaster won’t affect content, content creators will be worked with to get the changes through.

Q: What’s happening with Ability Scores?
A: Ability scores going away; they’re just going to become Ability Modifiers now.

Q: Favorite Change?
L: Focus points; they’re gonna be easier to use. Refocusing will be easier.
J: Dragons. Spoiled Omen Dragons hee ho.

Q: Alignment changing due to OGL?
A: Kinda sorta. It’s a reductive/legacy tool. Batman’s alignment remains unconfirmed by devs.

Q: What should game-masters think about the Remaster? What to look forward to?
A: Look for things you want to use in the Remaster; otherwise, content is unchanged as played. Exceptions are anything alignment-themed - GM should keep an eye out for systems affected by alignment changes.

5pm Stream Notes​

Remaster Project Stream (5pm EST)
  • Alignments will have absolutely no bearing on the established lore/story of Outsiders such as devils & angels.
    • They’ll go into other aspects, likely from Edicts & Anathemas.
  • Monster Core will have information for how Outsiders interact outside of Alignments.
Q: Is this Pathfinder 2.5?
A: Not enough changes for a 2.5 or a version change. It’s errata plus.

Q: Clarification for water pressure damage?
A: lmao no. It might go in somewhere for QoL changes.

Q: Will there be new 1st and 2nd level items?
A: Yes. Starting magic items, rings of protection will be in the errata. Alchemical items will be going to Player Core 2 to package them in with Alchemist.

Q: What happens to the humble bundle PDFs and PDF purchases?
A: PDFs won’t be updated quite yet. The rules/changes published will be available online for free.

Q: Is magic missile gone?
A: Erik - not sure. They changed magic missile’s mechanics. The name may change. (Force missile)

Q: Will Rogues get access to martial weapons?
A: Erik doesn’t know - team will consider it.

Q: What classes are changing?
A: Already outlined before; Champion, Oracle, Alchemist, Witch.

Q: Did these books screw up the production schedule?
A: YES apparently. 2024 was set in stone beforehand, it’s a little goofy now. Some things are going to be pushed forward.

Q: Starfinder and OGL?
A: A little later on in the future; not in the immediate future.

Q: Witch meeting patron mechanics?
A: Design team is listening; maybe

Q: Bard gets +5 early?
A: Nope at a glance

Q: Will the books be available as PDFs under the rulebooks subscription?
A: To be discussed; topic of discussion.

Q: Battlezoo changes?
A: Should work, there’s no mechanical changes that would affect the content in Battlezoo.

Q: How’s Dead God’s Hand going, Erik?
A: Remaster stuff did get in the way; Erik will finish it when he finishes it. Jinxes self with car accident.

Q: Errata for Divine stat blocks?
A: Not really; the Edicts and Anathema should cover everything in practice.

Q: Shoony versatile heritage/ core Shoony
A:No…?

Q: Apsu? Dragon changes?
A: Chromatic/metallic dragons are a little problematic with OGL, so they’re definitely going to be changed.These changes are a good opportunity to try out new Dragon things now that the design space is there.

Q: Deep dive expansion into pantheon lore?
A: Yes.

Q: Hag changes?
A: Work was being done for new hag ideas/designs? Extensive rework.

Q: New Pathfinder fiction?
A: No announcements from Erik; interest for returning to PF Tales

Basically all the questions from here are mechanics/design based and can’t be answered
Q: Drow equivalent?
A: Cannot say, but there’s a lot.

Q: Organized play changes?
A: Unsure.

Q: Witch mechanics?
A: Can’t answer; designers would be better for asking.

Q: What caused the most debate internally?
A: Alignments (duh).

Q: BB Box changes? (Again)
A: Not yet. The changes won’t be affecting most early level experiences. Some other intro content might come up.

Q: Disarm action changes?
A: Probably not.

Q: Starstone related content? (When can I become a god)
A: Dead God’s Hand

Erik Mona:
  • CONFIRMED ROGUE MARTIAL WEAPONS
  • WIZARD GETS SIMPLE WEAPONS
500 likes milestone
Rage of the Elements will have new errata rules.
There will be a download outlining all of the changes.

Methods being renamed




Pre-Stream Notes​


Source: Blog Post
  • Clarification: this is a REMASTER, does not make any rulebooks obsolete.
  • Alignment system removed (not reworked).
  • Spells with OGL-sourced names (such as magic missile) renamed.
Source: Pathfinder Player Core
  • Adding Leshys and Orcs to core ancestries.
  • New rules for versatile heritage.
  • Class revision for Witch.
  • Aasimar -> Nephilim (theory)
    • Potentially all outer plane scions will be called Nephilim
Source: Pathfinder GM Core
  • Errata for:
    • Staves
    • Talismans
    • New apex magic items
Source: Pathfinder Player Core 2
  • Class revisions for:
    • Alchemist
    • Champion
    • Oracle
  • Expanded ancestry options for:
    • catfolk,
    • gnoll,
    • hobgoblin,
    • kobold,
    • lizardfolk,
    • ratfolk,
    • tengu
  • New versatile heritage debuting.
Source: Pathfinder Monster Core
  • New dragon types…
    • power-hungry fortune dragon,
    • the peerless adamantine dragon,
    • the mischievous mirage dragon,
    • the fiendish diabolic dragon, and more!
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

To me, the removal of most Fun Abilities from monsters contributes more to the bag-of-hp problem than bounded accuracy does. A giant playing golf with the PCs is a lot more fun than one that just deals hp damage.

Oh yeah. Giants, in particular, were really fun when I started modding them out. I took away their extra attacks and just turned them into legendary actions with a bunch of different kinds of attacks. But as written, they are lame as hell.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Bounded accuracy (along with the removal of tactical maneuvers that matter in the game) is why 5e creature design feels like "bags of HP" to me.
I’ll take bag of HPs over “must be this tall to ride” level scaling of PF2.
 

- But it is a GMs perspective. PF2E's math makes judging CRs super accurate. 5E's bounded accuracy makes judging CRs unpredictable.

I'm in my PF2E bubble, so for me the choice is easy to prefer the Pathfinder ideology on this. BUT I am in my bubble... It's what I know so it intuitively makes sense to me, so I assume it's the better way to do things. But that's not actually a logic based argument - it's an emotional one based on familiarity...

That does seem to be pluses for PF2e / 4e like design.

You get more predictability and easier to create the right challenging and varied encounters/monsters because the assumption is that you will be using the mechanics to mostly model specific situations relative to PCs-- near at level challenges.

The downside is that you are decoupling the mechanics from "world building".

The 4e minion is the perfect example. It's a mechanical construct that represents monsters that pose some threat in numbers but are easily dispatched. It is highy tied to the fiction but realtive to the PCs. Hit points clearly become not a measure of how tough this monster is in the world but simply relative to the PCs at that level.
 


What does this mean?
In PF2e, it isn't really viable to fight monsters above a certain level unless you're a high enough level due to the game's tight math. Bags of hit points makes the barrier to using a monster a little lower.

I prefer PF2e, but when I want something less rigid I find something like AD&D or an OSR game like OSE closer to what I'd want to play since combat doesn't tend to drag out as much since HP tended to be lower all around. 5e just didn't do it for me.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
I'm currently playing in a PF2E game where I'm "maybe" the only player that did NOT come from 5E. Which includes the GM. For them it was a system switch. I say maybe because me and one other player joined when 2 of their 5 refused to even try PF2E. I think the other person also came from 5E - but they are now running their own PF2E game also so maybe not.

What I noted may be a sign of this 'bag of HP' thing.

I'm the caster so my combat mechanics are often limited to "did these guys leave space for me to AoE or am I spamming Electric Arc again?"
- We can start that topic up if we want, it's a whole different other problem with Pf2E...

BUT...

At the start of the campaign these guys would just move into range and roll attacks, then stay there and spam 3 attacks every turn.

Now they are getting into the PF2E mindset and to overcome this "you must be so tall" every turn is a mix of "I demoralize them, I move to flank, gonna trip that guy, using my special mirror to make a copy of myself behind that one, we're moving here to form a line, gonna grapple that one, gonna do this, gonna do that."

So...

What PF2E is doing is slowly opening up a bag of tactical options for these guys. And as it does they're getting more and more into their characters different tactical options.

Because the enemy are not bags of HPs, and if the players don't do tactics... well, the GM is busy learning the same lesson so enemies that used to just move into melee and bash away are now tossing out intricate spells, moving around barriers, taking cover, flanking us, trying to toss us down pits, and so on.

These guys are having so much fun with it, they recently voted to toss their other gaming night that was still 5E, and now we'll be doing a second game soon (and this time I've got a 2-hander fighter with the barbarian archetype so I get to do crazy tactics and be the one who gets yelled at for not leaving space for the caster to lay down some AoE... :) )

Oh and next session my caster is being swapped with her gunslinger w/ investigator archetype cousin because then I will have lots of tactical options when in single target mode outside of 'spam electric arc'. ;)


I took nearly 20 years off from tRPGs, where I was busy in MMOs. I remember raid bosses that were just huge health pools and spam your rotation, and raid bosses with complex fight mechanics and timing ourselves to do this, be there, go here, do a little dance, get behind the thing, get out from behind the thing except for that one guy there, and so on and so forth...

The health pool boss fights are boring.

The ones where you need to do complex tactics in order to get over the line are fun.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
What does this mean?
So, 5E and its BA demonstrates level power through HP. Higher level, more HP, more staying power.

PF2 is all level based. A level 1 PC can never face a higher threat than the level band allows. Thus, "be this tall to ride". Eventually, when the PC reaches say level 10, the threats from level 1 will never be threats again, in any number, with any tactics. By grace of level, you are now untouchable by lower level threats and still unable to touch higher level threats. Still not tall enough for some rides.

Really it comes down to preference. I like BA and the 5E take because that world makes sense to me. Why do dragons not just genocide everything in their path? Because they cant. Eventually a force it cant handle will form. In PF2, the dragon would not be threatened by anything unless its just a few levels below it, or a few levels above. It too, has a "this tall to ride" height. PF2 and its level banding makes a lot less sense from a setting perspective, to me, of course.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I’ll take bag of HPs over “must be this tall to ride” level scaling of PF2.

Its a viable position, but my own feeling is if I want to compress the gap between advanced and beginning opponents there are better choices than anything D&D-derived for that.

Edit: That said, I didn't find it particularly objectionable in Shadows of the Demon Lord, but Shadows of the Demon Lord also doesn't usually wrack up huge hit point differentials and/or damage, either.
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
What does this mean?

He's talking about the fact that after a certain level gap, you either have no chance at all, or the opposition isn't even speed bumps. There's a fairly narrow range of opposition that are actually credible threats to each other. As such, its just a fait accomply if the gap is larger than that. As I noted, put a party of 12th level characters against level two opponents. Even numbers make only a marginal difference at that point (and pretty much none if the opponents don't have ranged attacks).
 

It's just a case of all your numbers going up every level (which was annoying to constantly adjust as the player) - it makes lower-level opponents meaningless, but also makes higher-level opponents impossible (which I found annoyingly restrictive as the GM).

DnD4 did the same thing.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
The alternative is the tact that PF2e took; that at a certain point the skill in offense and defense of higher levelled characters and opponents simply leaves those at the low end behind. But 5e apparently actively wanted to avoid that so conventional opponents would stay some degree of threat all the way up, so there you are.
It's "tack", btw. :)

I've seen some really good 5E monsters, but Wizards seems to be generally aiming at the casual crowd.

Regardless of the system, getting monsters that are too strong for you leaves you with a Really Bad Time. (Getting hit by lots of criticals while not being able to hit them yourselves is very discouraging in PF2, while 5E may turn into a slog).

Cheers,
Merric
 


Come on, now let's not pretend that 5e goblins still remain a challenge to 10th level characters.
It depends on whether or not the DM gave them something that would allow them to remaining challenging to 10th level characters. With the right classes/subclasses, feats, and equipment a goblin might not be a pushover. They might pretend to be pushovers just to make you underestimate them. 😋
 


MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Come on, now let's not pretend that 5e goblins still remain a challenge to 10th level characters.
Give me enough goblins with ranged weapons!

But honestly - while the weakest of 5E monsters aren't really much of a threat, I feel there's a much wider range of levels for which they remain relevant.

A group of ogres (CR 2) with +6 to hit and 2d8+4 damage is something I could still send against 10th-level characters, expecting they'd deal with them fairly easily, but that they'd still be a threat worth respecting.

How long in PF2, would the ogre (CR 3) with +12 to hit and 1d10+7 damage be relevant?

This was something I got quite annoyed at in 3E, where the rate of attack bonus change (about 2 per level, once various extra modifiers were considered) really limited the level range where I could use monsters.

I found 4E to be a better than 3E in this respect - though still limited - but I wonder if the critical hit rules of PF2 really starts emphasizing the difference in levels?

Cheers,
Merric
 


Voadam

Legend
I’ll take bag of HPs over “must be this tall to ride” level scaling of PF2.
I don't think this has to be either or.

4e with its rich tactical options could be bound accuracy by taking away the +1 per two levels on attacks and defenses.

5e can be BA bag of hp or use monsters with rich tactical options and still be BA.

The 4e paradigm would work of scaling monsters and PCs would work with less combat tactical options. It would be easy to make 4e monsters with just bag of hp stats.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I don't think this has to be either or.

4e with its rich tactical options could be bound accuracy by taking away the +1 per two levels on attacks and defenses.

5e can be BA bag of hp or use monsters with rich tactical options and still be BA.

The 4e paradigm would work of scaling monsters and PCs would work with less combat tactical options. It would be easy to make 4e monsters with just bag of hp stats.
The tactics are an entirely different discussion. I'm simply talking about CR and basic numbers and how that plays out. I find 3E/PF1 CR to be less predictable and thus more enjoyable as player and GM. I can certainly see how that would be seen as a bug to may folks. The tighter and more accurate the CR, the more predictable the fight and less enjoyable for me. You can have tactics matter in any of those design positions.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Come on, now let's not pretend that 5e goblins still remain a challenge to 10th level characters.
I mean, they might be. Are they in hang gliders, dropping vials of alchemist fire? driving an Apparatus of Kwalish? rolling boulders or barrels of toxic waste down the hillside toward the party?

Nothing is going to be a challenge (at any level) if the plan is to have it stand in the same 5' square, wearing piecemeal scraps of armor and holding a pointy stick.
 

Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Starter Box

Visit Our Sponsor

Latest threads

Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition Starter Box

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top