Pathfinder 2E What Are The Changes In Pathfinder Remastered?

There has been a lot of information floating around about Paizo's upcoming Pathfinder Remastered project on the new product pages on Paizo's website, and posts on Paizo's blog. Additionally, over on Reddit MrHappyTwinkles has posted a list of changes, compiled from various sources, and Twitch streams hosted by Paizo and by the Roll For Combat channel. You can watch the full streams at the links below for more detail, but here are the compiled notes.

Each book now has a product page over on Paizo's website.

Pathfinder Player Core
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The Pathfinder Player Core presents a new entry point to Pathfinder Second Edition, with everything a player needs to learn how to play the game! Choose from eight ancestries, eight complete character classes, and hundreds of feats and spells to make unique characters ready for deadly adventures in a world beset by magic and evil! This 464-page hardcover tome is the definitive rules resource for all Pathfinder Second Edition players!

Pathfinder Player Core is the first core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the GM Core, Monster Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Player Core includes:
  • Easier to Learn! We’ve taken feedback from the Beginner Box and the Core Rulebook and made this new entry into the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game easier to navigate and get right into the fun.
  • Complete character creation rules, walking you through building a character by selecting your Ancestry, Background, and Class, with a focus on the bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, and wizard! Core ancestry options include human, dwarf, elf, gnome, goblin, halfling, leshy, and orc!
  • A mountain of options allowing you to customize your character including versatile heritages, like the changeling and nephilim, skills and feats, and hundreds of spells (including dozens of new ones), ensuring that the character you build represents your hero not just in story, but in rules as well!
  • Everything you need to know to start playing, from advice on how to explore the world to tips on surviving deadly combats with terrifying foes.
  • A primer on the world of Lost Omens so that your character can be a part of an exciting and diverse world!
  • Rules and tools to advance your character through play, taking them from a fresh-faced adventurer ready to take on the world to a veteran hero, wielding powerful magic that can reshape reality!
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including revisions to the witch, expanded options for every character class, streamlined spells, new equipment, and more!
  • This is the first Pathfinder product published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.


Pathfinder GM Core
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Unleash your imagination, creating worlds and stories beyond measure with the new Pathfinder GM Core for Pathfinder Second Edition! This comprehensive 336-page hardcover rulebook gives Game Masters everything they need to craft thrilling tales of adventure, from a single-night’s dungeon delve to complex epics spanning years. Within these pages you’ll find clear guidelines for creating new hazards and monsters, tools to design challenging, balanced encounters, and rules for rewarding characters for the dastardly challenges you array before them! Pathfinder GM Core also contains a dragon’s hoard of magic items and treasure to entice and reward your players, from simple healing potions to magic weapons and armor and legendary artifacts, including dozens of brand-new items!

Pathfinder GM Core is the second core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, Monster Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder GM Core includes:
  • The rules needed to run a game of Pathfinder, including guidelines for creating challenging encounters, determining success, and giving out rewards.
  • Advice aimed at making you an incredible Game Master, along with tools to ensure you and everyone else at your table has a safe and enjoyable experience.
  • Guidelines to help you create your own content, from campaigns and adventures to hazards and monsters.
  • Rules subsystems to help you handle a wide array of game situations, including rules for chases, duels, research, infiltration, and more!
  • A guide to the world of Lost Omens, with a look at several important regions, an examination of the peoples and cultures of the world, and a glimpse into what lies beyond the veil of the universe!
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including improvements to staves and talismans and all-new apex magic items!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.

Pathfinder Monster Core
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Heroes are defined by their foes—from shambling skeletons to terrifying dragons, each enemy leaves a mark on their growing legend. Make your legends memorable with foes from the new Pathfinder Monster Core rulebook for Pathfinder Second Edition! This 376-page hardcover book is packed with a wide range of monsters useful to all Pathfinder campaigns, giving the Game Master plenty of threats to throw at their adventurers, at any level of experience. The lavishly illustrated tome also includes guidelines for reading monster entries and adjusting existing monsters to tailor fit your story! This is the definitive resource for Pathfinder Second Edition monsters!

Pathfinder Monster Core is the third core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, GM Core, and Player Core 2, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Monster Core includes:
  • Over 400 individual monster writeups, including everything from common animals, like wolves and bears, to terrifying supernatural foes, such as the rune giant or the grim reaper!
  • Eight brand new dragons to challenge your players, including the power-hungry fortune dragon, the peerless adamantine dragon, the mischievous mirage dragon, the fiendish diabolic dragon, and more!
  • Classic monsters drawn from mythology, like the minotaur and the medusa, as well as creatures drawn from the legends of the Lost Omens setting, including favorites like the wicked sinspawn and unpredictable proteans.
  • Simple templates that allow you to customize a monster, making it more or less powerful with just a few simple adjustments.
  • Guidelines for reading and using a monster statistics, ensuring you get the most out of a creature both in and out of combat.
  • Lists of creatures sorted by both type and level, making it easy to find the monster you need when you need it.
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including new balance adjustments to ensure that every creature presents a thrilling level-appropriate challenge!
  • Hundreds of beautiful full-color creature illustrations!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.

Pathfinder Player Core 2
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Survival in a world beset by magic and evil takes more than a lucky roll of the dice. Pathfinder Player Core 2 significantly expands options available to Pathfinder players, giving them the edge to take on any adventure. This 320-page hardcover rulebook remasters 8 classes from Pathfinder Second Edition, providing everything you need to create a wide array of new characters, ready to take on the world. It also includes more than 40 archetypes, expanded ancestries, and tons of feats, spells, and alchemical items to provide a near-endless array of exciting options for every Pathfinder character! The ideal character option resource for players looking to move beyond the Pathfinder Player Core.

Pathfinder Player Core 2 is the fourth core rulebook for the fully remastered Pathfinder Second Edition RPG! These rules are compatible with previous Pathfinder Second Edition rulebooks, incorporating comprehensive errata and rules updates and some of the best additions from later books into new, easier-to-access volumes with new presentations inspired by years of player feedback. Along with the Player Core, GM Core, and Monster Core, these books provide a new foundation for the future of tabletop gaming!

Pathfinder Player Core 2 includes:
  • Eight fully detailed classes, including the alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler, each containing multiple character paths, multiclassing options, and dozens of feats!
  • Expanded ancestry options include the catfolk, gnoll, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, ratfolk, and tengu, alongside three versatile heritages—the dhampir, duskwalker, and an all-new heritage debuting in this volume!
  • More than 40 archetypes, allowing you to further customize your character’s story and abilities. Turn your hero into an aerial acrobat, a high-riding cavalier, a treacherous pirate, and so much more!
  • Spells, alchemical items, and magic items to round out the new classes and to provide some new tricks to the classes from Pathfinder Player Core.
  • Fully integrated errata from the first 4 years of Pathfinder Second Edition, including a revised alchemist, champion, and oracle!
  • Published under the new Open RPG Creative (ORC) license, giving players and Game Masters even more freedom for making their own creations based on Pathfinder Second Edition.


Twitch Stream Notes & More
Over on Reddit MrHappyTwinkles has posted a list of changes, compiled from various sources.


OGL-Based Changes​

  • “Spell level” terminology being changed to “Spell rank”
  • Ability scores going away; they’re just going to become Ability Modifiers now.
    • +1, +2, +3
  • Alignments are now going to be Edicts and Anathema.
    • Aligned damage now becomes Holy/Unholy.
  • OGL Spells are being renamed/replaced.
  • Nephilim replacing Tiefling/Aasimar and other Planar descendants.

Revisions​

  • Witch (Class)
  • Champion (Class)
  • Oracle (Class)
  • Focus Points (System)
  • CONFIRMED ROGUE MARTIAL WEAPONS, WIZARD GETS SIMPLE WEAPONS (Mechanics)

4pm Stream​

Twitch Stream (4pm EST)
Notes will be cleaned up post stream

Player Core​

November 2023
  • Character creation, game rules, conditions
  • Bulk of ancestries
  • 8 classes (*listed here Pathfinder Player Core)
    • Bard
    • Cleric
    • Druid
    • Fighter
    • Ranger
    • Rogue
    • Witch
    • Wizard
  • Core rulebook -> Player Core 1
  • QoL / Rewording spells, also new spells

  • Witch revisions
    • Witch interactions with patron
    • Emphasizing familiars
    • Hex mechanic changes
  • Nephilim
    • Taking the place of planar scions, versatile heritages
    • Demon, angel ancestry falls under here now
  • Alignment Edicts and Anathema
    • Edicts and Anathema will be used in its place as part of character creation
    • Optional element to characters
    • Holy/Unholy damage

GM Core​

November 2023
  • Magic items are going into GM Core from Player sourcebooks
    • New items
    • Category changes
  • Crafting changes
  • Advice from Game Mastery guide going into GM Core
  • Building adventures/campaigns
  • Subsystems from GMG, vehicles, chases, victory points
  • Free archetype rules
  • Variant rules are going in here too
  • Treasure section/chapter
    • Treasure vault system as base
  • Age of Lost Omens core rulebook info going into GM Core as a setting chapter
  • Talisman changes
    • Expanded on panel at PaizoCon

Monster Core​

March 2024
  • Bestiary 1 content, with some Bestiary 2 and 3
  • OGL monsters and problematic™ monsters being removed
  • Djinni/Genies
  • Dragons yay
    • Magical traditions being used as a base
      • Arcane
      • Divine
      • Primal
      • Occult
    • Confirmed names of dragons listed on Pathfinder Monster Core product page
    • Omen Dragon
  • Possibly a Monster Core 2

Player Core 2​

July 2024
  • Archetypes in Advanced Player’s Guide
  • Ancestries from other books going into PC2
    • Hobgoblin
    • Lizardfolk
    • Catfolk
    • Gnoll renamed to Kholo
    • Kobold
    • Ratfolk
    • Tengu
  • Versatile Heritages
    • Dhampir
    • Duskwalker
    • New unannounced heritage
  • Class Revisions
    • Alchemist (Full rework)
    • Champion (Changed from alignment)
      • Some thematic restrictions for champions
  • Alchemical Items

Q&A Content​

Q: How are Gods changing with alignment?
A: Gods that care heavily about “alignment” will remain strict about it, sounds like case by case thing

Q: Troop rules in Monster Core?
A: No. New troops in Rage of Elements though.

Q: Will there be revisions to the Beginner Box?
A: Revisions are minimal; no new BB edition yet. Revised intro product at some point.

Q: Conversion guide?
A: Term primer, resources for translating should be out there.
Example: Feat for alignment damage would get a nuanced change contained within whether or not it’s a feasible quick change

Q: Partnered content?
A: Remaster won’t affect content, content creators will be worked with to get the changes through.

Q: What’s happening with Ability Scores?
A: Ability scores going away; they’re just going to become Ability Modifiers now.

Q: Favorite Change?
L: Focus points; they’re gonna be easier to use. Refocusing will be easier.
J: Dragons. Spoiled Omen Dragons hee ho.

Q: Alignment changing due to OGL?
A: Kinda sorta. It’s a reductive/legacy tool. Batman’s alignment remains unconfirmed by devs.

Q: What should game-masters think about the Remaster? What to look forward to?
A: Look for things you want to use in the Remaster; otherwise, content is unchanged as played. Exceptions are anything alignment-themed - GM should keep an eye out for systems affected by alignment changes.

5pm Stream Notes​

Remaster Project Stream (5pm EST)
  • Alignments will have absolutely no bearing on the established lore/story of Outsiders such as devils & angels.
    • They’ll go into other aspects, likely from Edicts & Anathemas.
  • Monster Core will have information for how Outsiders interact outside of Alignments.
Q: Is this Pathfinder 2.5?
A: Not enough changes for a 2.5 or a version change. It’s errata plus.

Q: Clarification for water pressure damage?
A: lmao no. It might go in somewhere for QoL changes.

Q: Will there be new 1st and 2nd level items?
A: Yes. Starting magic items, rings of protection will be in the errata. Alchemical items will be going to Player Core 2 to package them in with Alchemist.

Q: What happens to the humble bundle PDFs and PDF purchases?
A: PDFs won’t be updated quite yet. The rules/changes published will be available online for free.

Q: Is magic missile gone?
A: Erik - not sure. They changed magic missile’s mechanics. The name may change. (Force missile)

Q: Will Rogues get access to martial weapons?
A: Erik doesn’t know - team will consider it.

Q: What classes are changing?
A: Already outlined before; Champion, Oracle, Alchemist, Witch.

Q: Did these books screw up the production schedule?
A: YES apparently. 2024 was set in stone beforehand, it’s a little goofy now. Some things are going to be pushed forward.

Q: Starfinder and OGL?
A: A little later on in the future; not in the immediate future.

Q: Witch meeting patron mechanics?
A: Design team is listening; maybe

Q: Bard gets +5 early?
A: Nope at a glance

Q: Will the books be available as PDFs under the rulebooks subscription?
A: To be discussed; topic of discussion.

Q: Battlezoo changes?
A: Should work, there’s no mechanical changes that would affect the content in Battlezoo.

Q: How’s Dead God’s Hand going, Erik?
A: Remaster stuff did get in the way; Erik will finish it when he finishes it. Jinxes self with car accident.

Q: Errata for Divine stat blocks?
A: Not really; the Edicts and Anathema should cover everything in practice.

Q: Shoony versatile heritage/ core Shoony
A:No…?

Q: Apsu? Dragon changes?
A: Chromatic/metallic dragons are a little problematic with OGL, so they’re definitely going to be changed.These changes are a good opportunity to try out new Dragon things now that the design space is there.

Q: Deep dive expansion into pantheon lore?
A: Yes.

Q: Hag changes?
A: Work was being done for new hag ideas/designs? Extensive rework.

Q: New Pathfinder fiction?
A: No announcements from Erik; interest for returning to PF Tales

Basically all the questions from here are mechanics/design based and can’t be answered
Q: Drow equivalent?
A: Cannot say, but there’s a lot.

Q: Organized play changes?
A: Unsure.

Q: Witch mechanics?
A: Can’t answer; designers would be better for asking.

Q: What caused the most debate internally?
A: Alignments (duh).

Q: BB Box changes? (Again)
A: Not yet. The changes won’t be affecting most early level experiences. Some other intro content might come up.

Q: Disarm action changes?
A: Probably not.

Q: Starstone related content? (When can I become a god)
A: Dead God’s Hand

Erik Mona:
  • CONFIRMED ROGUE MARTIAL WEAPONS
  • WIZARD GETS SIMPLE WEAPONS
500 likes milestone
Rage of the Elements will have new errata rules.
There will be a download outlining all of the changes.

Methods being renamed




Pre-Stream Notes​


Source: Blog Post
  • Clarification: this is a REMASTER, does not make any rulebooks obsolete.
  • Alignment system removed (not reworked).
  • Spells with OGL-sourced names (such as magic missile) renamed.
Source: Pathfinder Player Core
  • Adding Leshys and Orcs to core ancestries.
  • New rules for versatile heritage.
  • Class revision for Witch.
  • Aasimar -> Nephilim (theory)
    • Potentially all outer plane scions will be called Nephilim
Source: Pathfinder GM Core
  • Errata for:
    • Staves
    • Talismans
    • New apex magic items
Source: Pathfinder Player Core 2
  • Class revisions for:
    • Alchemist
    • Champion
    • Oracle
  • Expanded ancestry options for:
    • catfolk,
    • gnoll,
    • hobgoblin,
    • kobold,
    • lizardfolk,
    • ratfolk,
    • tengu
  • New versatile heritage debuting.
Source: Pathfinder Monster Core
  • New dragon types…
    • power-hungry fortune dragon,
    • the peerless adamantine dragon,
    • the mischievous mirage dragon,
    • the fiendish diabolic dragon, and more!
 
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Retreater

Legend
I mean, they might be. Are they in hang gliders, dropping vials of alchemist fire? driving an Apparatus of Kwalish? rolling boulders or barrels of toxic waste down the hillside toward the party?
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.
 

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Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.
How likely is it that your party will encounter a standard goblin? ;) It's not like they are wearing a sign around their neck that says (in mispronounced words) 'I am a standard goblin'. And if it's not that sign, it's this sign (again with a lot of mispronounced words) 'what's this bonded accuracy thing, you speak of' ? 😋
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
It's "tack", btw. :)

Homonym substitution is my middle name.

I've seen some really good 5E monsters, but Wizards seems to be generally aiming at the casual crowd.

So have I. Some of the Kobold Press monsters are quite creative.

Regardless of the system, getting monsters that are too strong for you leaves you with a Really Bad Time. (Getting hit by lots of criticals while not being able to hit them yourselves is very discouraging in PF2, while 5E may turn into a slog).

Cheers,
Merric

Yup. Honestly, there's not good solution here if you have a game that wants any real power range. Its why once you get outside the D&D sphere, most games mostly (because there are usually a couple exceptions--if you have a fantasy game with dragons and/or giants, they're almost always a real problem for at least the inexperienced (and in some games like RuneQuest, everyone)) just mostly avoid that degree of gap completely.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.
Bizzaro day, usually folks complain about dragons getting killed by Goblins with BA.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I found 4E to be a better than 3E in this respect - though still limited - but I wonder if the critical hit rules of PF2 really starts emphasizing the difference in levels?

Cheers,
Merric

Some of it is just qualitative options too (class features and feats), and the impact of magic items or their optional baked in properties.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
The tactics are an entirely different discussion. I'm simply talking about CR and basic numbers and how that plays out. I find 3E/PF1 CR to be less predictable and thus more enjoyable as player and GM. I can certainly see how that would be seen as a bug to may folks. The tighter and more accurate the CR, the more predictable the fight and less enjoyable for me. You can have tactics matter in any of those design positions.

It wasn't that it was unpredictable that was the issue I found over time; it was that it outright lied more and more as you advanced in levels. A 3e era CR 4 monster might genuinely be a challenge for a small level 4 party. A CR 12 monster was no challenge at all for a level 12 one. The CR calculation simply never kept up with the synergies D&D 3e era parties generated as they advanced, and it fell progressively behind. That was only one of the things that made running higher level parties painful in 3e.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
It wasn't that it was unpredictable that was the issue I found over time; it was that it outright lied more and more as you advanced in levels. A 3e era CR 4 monster might genuinely be a challenge for a small level 4 party. A CR 12 monster was no challenge at all for a level 12 one. The CR calculation simply never kept up with the synergies D&D 3e era parties generated as they advanced, and it fell progressively behind. That was only one of the things that made running higher level parties painful in 3e.
True. Also any given thing in a particular CR was wildly disparate in challenge. I mean, was a ghoul really the same threat as a Goblin warchanter? I just got used to running the system over a period of 20 years. The APs were written well, but also had their issues. I have heard the complaints and they have merit.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
True. Also any given thing in a particular CR was wildly disparate in challenge. I mean, was a ghoul really the same threat as a Goblin warchanter? I just got used to running the system over a period of 20 years. The APs were written well, but also had their issues. I have heard the complaints and they have merit.

I cut some slack to the early adventures because I've concluded adventure writers have the same problem as generals; they're always subconsciously writing for the prior edition for a while.

The disparate CR problem often had to do with the fact some special abilities were completely overpowered compared to others, which probably should be no surprise given 3e era spells and feats suffered from the same disease.
 

So, 5E and its BA demonstrates level power through HP. Higher level, more HP, more staying power.

PF2 is all level based. A level 1 PC can never face a higher threat than the level band allows. Thus, "be this tall to ride". Eventually, when the PC reaches say level 10, the threats from level 1 will never be threats again, in any number, with any tactics. By grace of level, you are now untouchable by lower level threats and still unable to touch higher level threats. Still not tall enough for some rides.

Really it comes down to preference. I like BA and the 5E take because that world makes sense to me. Why do dragons not just genocide everything in their path? Because they cant. Eventually a force it cant handle will form. In PF2, the dragon would not be threatened by anything unless its just a few levels below it, or a few levels above. It too, has a "this tall to ride" height. PF2 and its level banding makes a lot less sense from a setting perspective, to me, of course.

I know what you are saying, but I just don't see the connotation you are implying. It's true that the rulesets are designed to adudicate in a band.

IMO these rulesets are not trying to model the same things though. In rulesets like PF2e and 4e, the mechanics are not designed to do the worldbuilding thought excercises you are talking about. They are only designed to model challenges between PCs of X level and monsters. Which I acknowledge is a negative to some people.

It doesn't mean they don't make sense within the fiction though. Going back to the 4e minions example which is the starkest example. Those hill giant minions are mechanically appropriate when facing 25th level demi-god PCs -- they act like you would expect in the fiction -- red shirts getting mowed down that occasionally present some trouble when in numbers and combined with real threats to that fictional positioning. Those hill giants would crush a normal town (or not if they had some seige defenses, etc.) depending on fictional context. The mechanics tell you nothing about this outcome though.

The benefits of a PF2e/4e model seem to be easier to design mechanics and balancing, easier to add cool abilities, etc. because you only have to worry about relative to PCs at X+/2 level.

The downside is that you can't rely on the mechanics as "world truths". Although certainly possible in the other editions, I would question though whether 5e and other D&D editions really work well as "world truth" mechanics anyway.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
The downside is that you can't rely on the mechanics as "world truths". Although certainly possible in the other editions, I would question though whether 5e and other D&D editions really work well as "world truth" mechanics anyway.
In my experience they do. Also, minion fire giants isnt my playstyle preference. I totally get that is something Paizo wants to provide, and I think its a smart move as a differentiation to 5E BA.
 

Staffan

Legend
Come on, now let's not pretend that 5e goblins still remain a challenge to 10th level characters.
A single goblin? No. But in large numbers they can pose a threat, or when used alongside more powerful opponents. It's been a while now so I don't recall the specifics, but I recall a fight in Princes of the Apocalypse when the PCs (probably level 8-10 at this point) were fighting some reasonably strong opponents and in addition there were a bunch of hobgoblins shooting at them. Seeing as the PCs at level 8-10 had more or less the same AC as at level 4, the hobgoblins' +3 attack bonus/d8+1 (with a possible extra +2d6) damage remained relevant to the rest of the encounter, and was annoying the party enough that they used a fairly high-level AOE spell (maybe insect plague?) to deal with them.
 

A single goblin? No. But in large numbers they can pose a threat, or when used alongside more powerful opponents. It's been a while now so I don't recall the specifics, but I recall a fight in Princes of the Apocalypse when the PCs (probably level 8-10 at this point) were fighting some reasonably strong opponents and in addition there were a bunch of hobgoblins shooting at them. Seeing as the PCs at level 8-10 had more or less the same AC as at level 4, the hobgoblins' +3 attack bonus/d8+1 (with a possible extra +2d6) damage remained relevant to the rest of the encounter, and was annoying the party enough that they used a fairly high-level AOE spell (maybe insect plague?) to deal with them.
That's basically what lower CR enemies are for in 5e at later levels. They get in the way to clog up the battlefield, which encourages the PCs to use resources to get rid of them faster so they can focus on the sack of HP that is the real fight. I know in the last 5e campaign my group ran, I played a sorcerer and was always looking for ways to speed up the fights with a well placed AOE spell even if the foes I was using it on weren't really a threat to hit our frontline paladin or herd of elk the druid summoned. The DM was certainly doing the same thing with the elk.

I'm not a fan of that approach to game and encounter design, but I 100% recognize it's valid and works for a lot of people.
 

Voadam

Legend
But honestly - while the weakest of 5E monsters aren't really much of a threat, I feel there's a much wider range of levels for which they remain relevant.

A group of ogres (CR 2) with +6 to hit and 2d8+4 damage is something I could still send against 10th-level characters, expecting they'd deal with them fairly easily, but that they'd still be a threat worth respecting.

How long in PF2, would the ogre (CR 3) with +12 to hit and 1d10+7 damage be relevant?

5e also seems to have a jump from the lowest CR monsters to mid-low CR monsters.

A CR 1/4 goblin has AC 15, 7 hp, +4 scimitar for 5 damage.

A CR 1/2 orc has AC 13, 15 hp, +5 axe for 9 damage.

A CR 1 goblin boss has AC 17, 21 hp, +4 scimitar twice for 5 damage each.

A CR 2 orog orc has AC 18, 42 hp, +6 axe twice for 10 damage each.

I find that low CR monsters are much more relevant when thrown against mid-level parties in 5e than they were in 3e/PF1e.

Tanking for AC is useful in 5e, but I rarely get the hit only on a 20 situation that came up with AC builds in 3e mid level play a bunch in my experience using lower CR monsters.
 

In my experience they do. Also, minion fire giants isnt my playstyle preference. I totally get that is something Paizo wants to provide, and I think its a smart move as a differentiation to 5E BA.

Sure, I can't argue against preference.

I do think that PF2e/4e mechanics do not have to reduce verisimilitude though. It just goes about it in a different way. And trying to use those rulesets for "world truth" simulation will not work because they are not meant to be used that way. So of course they don't work well if used that way.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.
...where it belongs, IMO.

My point is, anything can be as challenging as it needs to be.

I think that if it makes sense for the goblins in your campaign to be using barrels of toxic waste, you should use them regardless of what The Math says. If artefacts and chemical weapons are too far-fetched, use boulders and logs. (shrug)
 
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Thomas Shey

Legend
That's basically what lower CR enemies are for in 5e at later levels. They get in the way to clog up the battlefield, which encourages the PCs to use resources to get rid of them faster so they can focus on the sack of HP that is the real fight. I know in the last 5e campaign my group ran, I played a sorcerer and was always looking for ways to speed up the fights with a well placed AOE spell even if the foes I was using it on weren't really a threat to hit our frontline paladin or herd of elk the druid summoned. The DM was certainly doing the same thing with the elk.

I'm not a fan of that approach to game and encounter design, but I 100% recognize it's valid and works for a lot of people.

Honestly, its the function mooks/minions serve in a lot of games; they're usually brittle enough they can be folded up easily, but still dangerous enough you can't ignore them. It works that way in Savage Worlds and at least two superhero games I know of.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
For the odds in PF2E to be impossible level of hopeless you need about an 18 to 20 level difference.

A fighter at level 1 with base 10 stats has a +5 chance to hit. A fighter at level 20 with no armor has a base 37 AC.

All you need is a +2 circumstance bonus to turn your best result into a fail - and that's important here. Because with a few circumstance bonuses you can get it so a natural 20 is only a failure. A natural 20 always pushes a result up 1. Making that failure a success. Now you have 5% of that army hitting the enemy with their arrows or something...

This means that if you pit say... an army of 1000 warriors against a single level 20 monster. They will hurt it. They might even kill it. But the monster has the odds. It's a Kaiju level monster after all.

The idea that the odds get impossible in PF2E is just not accurate. They get extremely difficult. And that is a different thing. It means that the entire army can swam that one tarasque that arrives on the planet - but it's a history making event (and check Golarian lore because that's an actual example from the lore).

PF2E actually does always preserve that slim chance that a weaker opponent can win with numbers and tactics. 5E's bounded accuracy almost ensures they will even when plot wise they shouldn't. In 5E to win you just need to not run out of ants before you do enough damage. In Pf2E your army needs extreme tactics and favor of the gods like odds - but it's possible, just barely.

And that remains a theme throughout. In 5E among equally matched opponents I get less need to use tactics so I just stand there and trade hits until a casino (the dice) picks a winner. In PF2E - I can turn an even fight in my favor by doing things to stack the modifiers, so I'm stupid if I just stand there trading blows. Every single +1 in PF2E has a marked impact on the odds - so my entire team needs to 'get in on the game' of shifting each other's odds.

As a former MMO player I love this. It's like every fight is a raid boss - we need to work together with good tactics to win, and the GM can get the same thrill of seeing how we react to the tactics they use against us. The GM gets the thrill a 'boss designer' of a video game gets - every single fight. And the players get the thrill of an MMO raid team - every fight.

In D&D... they just need to swarm it from enough sides that it can't kill them fast enough because they will be guarantied to win by numbers. No history gets made.

For me... this seems like a win for PF2E's math, not for bounded accuracy.

We should split this whole topic into it's thread at this point, or rename this thread "Bounded Accuracy vs. PF2E unbounded modifiers" or something...
 
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Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
If you want to substitute "statistically unlikely to matter" for "impossible" when I'm referring to it, feel free.
Yes I do want that. Why?

Because people are attacking PF2E's math by criticizing these extremes of wide level or wide group size encounters. They're doing that because we all know that outside of the extremes PF2E's math holds up extremely well for highly tactical balanced play.

So they went for the 'almost straw man' of "what about a mob of level 1s against a high level" and claimed Pf2E broke there. So... yeah. I took that "All the way" and went mob of level 1 vs max level monster" and... PF2E doesn't break down even at it's most extreme power imbalance - the odds still give the army a chance. That chance is actually probably in their favor because if 5% of 1000 soldiers hit that level 20 it's game over for the level 20.

So... My counter is that the argument actually doesn't work against PF2E in those extremes.

At every range of play - balanced encounter to extremely bad odds encounter - tactics are important. That's what PF2E delivers - tactical combat in a tRPG using a system that can play it out fast (as someone who used to be a Champions GM, I know how valuable that 'fast' part is... that old game gave me tactics but at the cost of extremely slow gameplay).

EDIT: The tarasque example I used before is an actual exception. It has an unhittable AC. But if attacks get through, in PF2E it "only" has 540 HP. A mid level army could take it with good tactics. Which actually IS a part of PF2E's lore until the remaster deletes tarasque...
 

Voadam

Legend
For the odds in PF2E to be impossible level of hopeless you need about an 18 to 20 level difference.

A fighter at level 1 with base 10 stats has a +5 chance to hit. A fighter at level 20 with no armor has a base 37 AC.

All you need is a +2 circumstance bonus to turn your best result into a fail - and that's important here. Because with a few circumstance bonuses you can get it so a natural 20 is only a failure. A natural 20 always pushes a result up 1. Making that failure a success. Now you have 5% of that army hitting the enemy with their arrows or something...

I am not familiar enough with PF2e to follow here.

What level difference do you need on average for lower level attackers to need a 20 to hit?

How about for a character focused on AC tanking?

PF2e has the compounding effect of the amount of rolling over or under affecting the impact of hits and misses so the difference in combat disparity goes up more than just the percent of attacks that hit would indicate.
 

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