Pathfinder 2E What Are The Changes In Pathfinder Remastered?

Retreater · Jun 2, 2023

CleverNickName said:
I mean, they might be. Are they in hang gliders, dropping vials of alchemist fire? driving an Apparatus of Kwalish? rolling boulders or barrels of toxic waste down the hillside toward the party?

Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.

Corinnguard · Jun 2, 2023

Retreater said:
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.

How likely is it that your party will encounter a standard goblin?

It's not like they are wearing a sign around their neck that says (in mispronounced words) 'I am a standard goblin'. And if it's not that sign, it's this sign (again with a lot of mispronounced words) 'what's this bonded accuracy thing, you speak of' ?

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

MerricB said:
It's "tack", btw.

Homonym substitution is my middle name.

MerricB said:
I've seen some really good 5E monsters, but Wizards seems to be generally aiming at the casual crowd.

So have I. Some of the Kobold Press monsters are quite creative.

MerricB said:
Regardless of the system, getting monsters that are too strong for you leaves you with a Really Bad Time. (Getting hit by lots of criticals while not being able to hit them yourselves is very discouraging in PF2, while 5E may turn into a slog).

Cheers,
Merric

Yup. Honestly, there's not good solution here if you have a game that wants any real power range. Its why once you get outside the D&D sphere, most games mostly (because there are usually a couple exceptions--if you have a fantasy game with dragons and/or giants, they're almost always a real problem for at least the inexperienced (and in some games like RuneQuest, everyone)) just mostly avoid that degree of gap completely.

payn · Jun 2, 2023

Retreater said:
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.

Bizzaro day, usually folks complain about dragons getting killed by Goblins with BA.

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

MerricB said:
I found 4E to be a better than 3E in this respect - though still limited - but I wonder if the critical hit rules of PF2 really starts emphasizing the difference in levels?

Cheers,
Merric

Some of it is just qualitative options too (class features and feats), and the impact of magic items or their optional baked in properties.

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

payn said:
The tactics are an entirely different discussion. I'm simply talking about CR and basic numbers and how that plays out. I find 3E/PF1 CR to be less predictable and thus more enjoyable as player and GM. I can certainly see how that would be seen as a bug to may folks. The tighter and more accurate the CR, the more predictable the fight and less enjoyable for me. You can have tactics matter in any of those design positions.

It wasn't that it was unpredictable that was the issue I found over time; it was that it outright lied more and more as you advanced in levels. A 3e era CR 4 monster might genuinely be a challenge for a small level 4 party. A CR 12 monster was no challenge at all for a level 12 one. The CR calculation simply never kept up with the synergies D&D 3e era parties generated as they advanced, and it fell progressively behind. That was only one of the things that made running higher level parties painful in 3e.

payn · Jun 2, 2023

Thomas Shey said:
It wasn't that it was unpredictable that was the issue I found over time; it was that it outright lied more and more as you advanced in levels. A 3e era CR 4 monster might genuinely be a challenge for a small level 4 party. A CR 12 monster was no challenge at all for a level 12 one. The CR calculation simply never kept up with the synergies D&D 3e era parties generated as they advanced, and it fell progressively behind. That was only one of the things that made running higher level parties painful in 3e.

True. Also any given thing in a particular CR was wildly disparate in challenge. I mean, was a ghoul really the same threat as a Goblin warchanter? I just got used to running the system over a period of 20 years. The APs were written well, but also had their issues. I have heard the complaints and they have merit.

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

payn said:
True. Also any given thing in a particular CR was wildly disparate in challenge. I mean, was a ghoul really the same threat as a Goblin warchanter? I just got used to running the system over a period of 20 years. The APs were written well, but also had their issues. I have heard the complaints and they have merit.

I cut some slack to the early adventures because I've concluded adventure writers have the same problem as generals; they're always subconsciously writing for the prior edition for a while.

The disparate CR problem often had to do with the fact some special abilities were completely overpowered compared to others, which probably should be no surprise given 3e era spells and feats suffered from the same disease.

bert1001 fka bert1000 · Jun 2, 2023

payn said:
So, 5E and its BA demonstrates level power through HP. Higher level, more HP, more staying power.

PF2 is all level based. A level 1 PC can never face a higher threat than the level band allows. Thus, "be this tall to ride". Eventually, when the PC reaches say level 10, the threats from level 1 will never be threats again, in any number, with any tactics. By grace of level, you are now untouchable by lower level threats and still unable to touch higher level threats. Still not tall enough for some rides.

Really it comes down to preference. I like BA and the 5E take because that world makes sense to me. Why do dragons not just genocide everything in their path? Because they cant. Eventually a force it cant handle will form. In PF2, the dragon would not be threatened by anything unless its just a few levels below it, or a few levels above. It too, has a "this tall to ride" height. PF2 and its level banding makes a lot less sense from a setting perspective, to me, of course.

I know what you are saying, but I just don't see the connotation you are implying. It's true that the rulesets are designed to adudicate in a band.

IMO these rulesets are not trying to model the same things though. In rulesets like PF2e and 4e, the mechanics are not designed to do the worldbuilding thought excercises you are talking about. They are only designed to model challenges between PCs of X level and monsters. Which I acknowledge is a negative to some people.

It doesn't mean they don't make sense within the fiction though. Going back to the 4e minions example which is the starkest example. Those hill giant minions are mechanically appropriate when facing 25th level demi-god PCs -- they act like you would expect in the fiction -- red shirts getting mowed down that occasionally present some trouble when in numbers and combined with real threats to that fictional positioning. Those hill giants would crush a normal town (or not if they had some seige defenses, etc.) depending on fictional context. The mechanics tell you nothing about this outcome though.

The benefits of a PF2e/4e model seem to be easier to design mechanics and balancing, easier to add cool abilities, etc. because you only have to worry about relative to PCs at X+/2 level.

The downside is that you can't rely on the mechanics as "world truths". Although certainly possible in the other editions, I would question though whether 5e and other D&D editions really work well as "world truth" mechanics anyway.

payn · Jun 2, 2023

bert1001 fka bert1000 said:
The downside is that you can't rely on the mechanics as "world truths". Although certainly possible in the other editions, I would question though whether 5e and other D&D editions really work well as "world truth" mechanics anyway.

In my experience they do. Also, minion fire giants isnt my playstyle preference. I totally get that is something Paizo wants to provide, and I think its a smart move as a differentiation to 5E BA.

Staffan · Jun 2, 2023

Retreater said:
Come on, now let's not pretend that 5e goblins still remain a challenge to 10th level characters.

A single goblin? No. But in large numbers they can pose a threat, or when used alongside more powerful opponents. It's been a while now so I don't recall the specifics, but I recall a fight in Princes of the Apocalypse when the PCs (probably level 8-10 at this point) were fighting some reasonably strong opponents and in addition there were a bunch of hobgoblins shooting at them. Seeing as the PCs at level 8-10 had more or less the same AC as at level 4, the hobgoblins' +3 attack bonus/d8+1 (with a possible extra +2d6) damage remained relevant to the rest of the encounter, and was annoying the party enough that they used a fairly high-level AOE spell (maybe insect plague?) to deal with them.

Velderan · Jun 2, 2023

Staffan said:
A single goblin? No. But in large numbers they can pose a threat, or when used alongside more powerful opponents. It's been a while now so I don't recall the specifics, but I recall a fight in Princes of the Apocalypse when the PCs (probably level 8-10 at this point) were fighting some reasonably strong opponents and in addition there were a bunch of hobgoblins shooting at them. Seeing as the PCs at level 8-10 had more or less the same AC as at level 4, the hobgoblins' +3 attack bonus/d8+1 (with a possible extra +2d6) damage remained relevant to the rest of the encounter, and was annoying the party enough that they used a fairly high-level AOE spell (maybe insect plague?) to deal with them.

That's basically what lower CR enemies are for in 5e at later levels. They get in the way to clog up the battlefield, which encourages the PCs to use resources to get rid of them faster so they can focus on the sack of HP that is the real fight. I know in the last 5e campaign my group ran, I played a sorcerer and was always looking for ways to speed up the fights with a well placed AOE spell even if the foes I was using it on weren't really a threat to hit our frontline paladin or herd of elk the druid summoned. The DM was certainly doing the same thing with the elk.

I'm not a fan of that approach to game and encounter design, but I 100% recognize it's valid and works for a lot of people.

Voadam · Jun 2, 2023

MerricB said:
But honestly - while the weakest of 5E monsters aren't really much of a threat, I feel there's a much wider range of levels for which they remain relevant.

A group of ogres (CR 2) with +6 to hit and 2d8+4 damage is something I could still send against 10th-level characters, expecting they'd deal with them fairly easily, but that they'd still be a threat worth respecting.

How long in PF2, would the ogre (CR 3) with +12 to hit and 1d10+7 damage be relevant?

5e also seems to have a jump from the lowest CR monsters to mid-low CR monsters.

A CR 1/4 goblin has AC 15, 7 hp, +4 scimitar for 5 damage.

A CR 1/2 orc has AC 13, 15 hp, +5 axe for 9 damage.

A CR 1 goblin boss has AC 17, 21 hp, +4 scimitar twice for 5 damage each.

A CR 2 orog orc has AC 18, 42 hp, +6 axe twice for 10 damage each.

I find that low CR monsters are much more relevant when thrown against mid-level parties in 5e than they were in 3e/PF1e.

Tanking for AC is useful in 5e, but I rarely get the hit only on a 20 situation that came up with AC builds in 3e mid level play a bunch in my experience using lower CR monsters.

bert1001 fka bert1000 · Jun 2, 2023

payn said:
In my experience they do. Also, minion fire giants isnt my playstyle preference. I totally get that is something Paizo wants to provide, and I think its a smart move as a differentiation to 5E BA.

Sure, I can't argue against preference.

I do think that PF2e/4e mechanics do not have to reduce verisimilitude though. It just goes about it in a different way. And trying to use those rulesets for "world truth" simulation will not work because they are not meant to be used that way. So of course they don't work well if used that way.

CleverNickName · Jun 2, 2023

Retreater said:
Now that people are mentioning giving them access to artifacts and class levels as well as the ability to trigger lair actions (toxic waste barrels), they're no longer the standard goblins. The bounded accuracy argument goes out the window.

...where it belongs, IMO.

My point is, anything can be as challenging as it needs to be.

I think that if it makes sense for the goblins in your campaign to be using barrels of toxic waste, you should use them regardless of what The Math says. If artefacts and chemical weapons are too far-fetched, use boulders and logs. (shrug)

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

Velderan said:
That's basically what lower CR enemies are for in 5e at later levels. They get in the way to clog up the battlefield, which encourages the PCs to use resources to get rid of them faster so they can focus on the sack of HP that is the real fight. I know in the last 5e campaign my group ran, I played a sorcerer and was always looking for ways to speed up the fights with a well placed AOE spell even if the foes I was using it on weren't really a threat to hit our frontline paladin or herd of elk the druid summoned. The DM was certainly doing the same thing with the elk.

I'm not a fan of that approach to game and encounter design, but I 100% recognize it's valid and works for a lot of people.

Honestly, its the function mooks/minions serve in a lot of games; they're usually brittle enough they can be folded up easily, but still dangerous enough you can't ignore them. It works that way in Savage Worlds and at least two superhero games I know of.

Kichwas · Jun 2, 2023

For the odds in PF2E to be impossible level of hopeless you need about an 18 to 20 level difference.

A fighter at level 1 with base 10 stats has a +5 chance to hit. A fighter at level 20 with no armor has a base 37 AC.

All you need is a +2 circumstance bonus to turn your best result into a fail - and that's important here. Because with a few circumstance bonuses you can get it so a natural 20 is only a failure. A natural 20 always pushes a result up 1. Making that failure a success. Now you have 5% of that army hitting the enemy with their arrows or something...

This means that if you pit say... an army of 1000 warriors against a single level 20 monster. They will hurt it. They might even kill it. But the monster has the odds. It's a Kaiju level monster after all.

The idea that the odds get impossible in PF2E is just not accurate. They get extremely difficult. And that is a different thing. It means that the entire army can swam that one tarasque that arrives on the planet - but it's a history making event (and check Golarian lore because that's an actual example from the lore).

PF2E actually does always preserve that slim chance that a weaker opponent can win with numbers and tactics. 5E's bounded accuracy almost ensures they will even when plot wise they shouldn't. In 5E to win you just need to not run out of ants before you do enough damage. In Pf2E your army needs extreme tactics and favor of the gods like odds - but it's possible, just barely.

And that remains a theme throughout. In 5E among equally matched opponents I get less need to use tactics so I just stand there and trade hits until a casino (the dice) picks a winner. In PF2E - I can turn an even fight in my favor by doing things to stack the modifiers, so I'm stupid if I just stand there trading blows. Every single +1 in PF2E has a marked impact on the odds - so my entire team needs to 'get in on the game' of shifting each other's odds.

As a former MMO player I love this. It's like every fight is a raid boss - we need to work together with good tactics to win, and the GM can get the same thrill of seeing how we react to the tactics they use against us. The GM gets the thrill a 'boss designer' of a video game gets - every single fight. And the players get the thrill of an MMO raid team - every fight.

In D&D... they just need to swarm it from enough sides that it can't kill them fast enough because they will be guarantied to win by numbers. No history gets made.

For me... this seems like a win for PF2E's math, not for bounded accuracy.

We should split this whole topic into it's thread at this point, or rename this thread "Bounded Accuracy vs. PF2E unbounded modifiers" or something...

Thomas Shey · Jun 2, 2023

If you want to substitute "statistically unlikely to matter" for "impossible" when I'm referring to it, feel free.

Kichwas · Jun 2, 2023

Thomas Shey said:
If you want to substitute "statistically unlikely to matter" for "impossible" when I'm referring to it, feel free.

Yes I do want that. Why?

Because people are attacking PF2E's math by criticizing these extremes of wide level or wide group size encounters. They're doing that because we all know that outside of the extremes PF2E's math holds up extremely well for highly tactical balanced play.

So they went for the 'almost straw man' of "what about a mob of level 1s against a high level" and claimed Pf2E broke there. So... yeah. I took that "All the way" and went mob of level 1 vs max level monster" and... PF2E doesn't break down even at it's most extreme power imbalance - the odds still give the army a chance. That chance is actually probably in their favor because if 5% of 1000 soldiers hit that level 20 it's game over for the level 20.

So... My counter is that the argument actually doesn't work against PF2E in those extremes.

At every range of play - balanced encounter to extremely bad odds encounter - tactics are important. That's what PF2E delivers - tactical combat in a tRPG using a system that can play it out fast (as someone who used to be a Champions GM, I know how valuable that 'fast' part is... that old game gave me tactics but at the cost of extremely slow gameplay).

EDIT: The tarasque example I used before is an actual exception. It has an unhittable AC. But if attacks get through, in PF2E it "only" has 540 HP. A mid level army could take it with good tactics. Which actually IS a part of PF2E's lore until the remaster deletes tarasque...

Voadam · Jun 2, 2023

Kichwas said:
For the odds in PF2E to be impossible level of hopeless you need about an 18 to 20 level difference.

A fighter at level 1 with base 10 stats has a +5 chance to hit. A fighter at level 20 with no armor has a base 37 AC.

All you need is a +2 circumstance bonus to turn your best result into a fail - and that's important here. Because with a few circumstance bonuses you can get it so a natural 20 is only a failure. A natural 20 always pushes a result up 1. Making that failure a success. Now you have 5% of that army hitting the enemy with their arrows or something...

I am not familiar enough with PF2e to follow here.

What level difference do you need on average for lower level attackers to need a 20 to hit?

How about for a character focused on AC tanking?

PF2e has the compounding effect of the amount of rolling over or under affecting the impact of hits and misses so the difference in combat disparity goes up more than just the percent of attacks that hit would indicate.

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