D&D General What are the issues with the 2014 Subclasses

[Stormonu]

I've been working on my own custom version of the 2014 D&D rules, and I'm looking for problems, oversights or outright abuses with that version of the game regarding the various subclasses so I don't get caught flatfooted by them in my custom rules. This should be restricted to WotC only content, of course.

 

[Zardnaar]

OP stuff like twilight clerics and crap like the berzerker.

Find a tier list and aim for B+ to A levels imho. Older dungeon dudes subclass tier lists are a decent place to start.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

It depends what you don't like in the game. However, going class by class, mostly from memory:

Barbarian: Berserker's core feature ties into an exhaustion mechanic nothing else uses and the mechanic just doesn't fit the game overall (might be great rules for some variant version of 5e, but a poor fit for how most people play it). Nearly all the Babarian subclasses are heavily magic based, which kind of goes against the core theme of the class from many people's perspectives.

Bard: All subclasses should have a means of spending their inspiration directly rather than giving it to someone else. I know this goes against some people's core idea of what a Bard should be because it's been primarily a party buffing class in other editions, but it's just two common to have fellow players who just never use the inspiration dice you give out, and they are a major resource for the Bard.

Cleric: Not a big Cleric player so no strong opinions. It always struck me as really dumb that the Forge Cleric didn't have martial weapons proficiency. The Trickery Cleric's "can only buff someone else's stealth" ability should be able to buff themself, because that's how nearly all abilities work in 5e and this cleric is likely weak in. the stealth department anyway. I don't necessarily care that the Twilight Cleric's aura is OP, but it should grant a set amount of temp HP rather than demand a bunch of tedious rolling.

Druid: Moon Druid is simply overpowered vs. all competitors.

Fighter: Arcane Archer needs more uses of its core ability, Purple Dragon Knight is a hopeless trashfire, a few more thematically non-magical subclasses would be good given that this is one of the principle non-magic classes. Post Tasha's version of Bladesinger the Eldritch Knight really needed a comparable replace attack with a cantrip ability.

Monk: Four elements monk simply should not be casting spells with Ki. The Ki budget of Monks is a mess already, and this mega Ki hungry subclass is a mess. Otherwise no strong opinions on subclasses.

Paladin: I feel like the Paladin subclasses are all pretty strong eventually but some have much stronger level 3 abilities than others. Generally a lot of the Channel Divinity abilities are underwhelming (I think Channel Divinity in general narrowed design space for Cleric and Paladin subclasses too much and led to a lot of samey abilities, and a lot nobody bothers to use).

Ranger: Beastmaster is a mess, and powers its mess with a cumbersome rules set. Hunter is strong, but along with Beastmaster doesn't really fit the standardized mold of later subclasses. Gloomstalker is head and shoulders the best. All the post-PHB subclasses double down on making Ranger's abiliies revolve around magic, which many of us don't care for (at least not all the time).

Rogue: Assassin's exellent Assassinate ability is two not directly related abilities confusingly presented as one, and most the rest of their abilities are crap. Inquisitive's Eye for Detail abiliy to make perception and investigation checks as bonus actions is basically useless, because nobody goes around making those sorts of checks in combat, except sometimes as a DM prompted free action. The Scout Survivalist ability is one of many skill granting abiliies that incentivizes going from zero to prodigy, because it is clearly optimal to not waste skill proficiencies until the ability grants expertise in Nature and Survival (but doesn't call it that).

Sorcerer: The fundamental issue with the class was being kept from having enough spells. This was finally solved with the Tasha's subclasses which gave a bunch of free spells. The other subclasses all needed this treatment to be worth playing (and let the Storm Sorcerer have Call Lightning!).

Warlock: Hexblade is the most ridiculously overpowered one level dip in the game for any character with high charisma. The decision to just give Warlock subclasses additional spells they can learn rather than a bunch of free known or prepared spells like subclasses in other classes was confusing and an unnecessary limitation.

Wizard: Transmuter is the weakest, War Wizard is an amazing level 2 and then a bunch of sucky abiliies, making it much more useful as a 2 level dip for an Eldritch Knight or something then as an actual subclass to play for a proper Wizard. Necromancer is the most disappointing because you have to wait to level 5 to do any real Necromancy, and then as an insult you get Animae Dead for free if you wait yet anoher level. I should be something you can cast in some limited way from he point you gain the subclass.

Overall, as the edition developed, and more pronounced still in 2024 D&D, the subclasses involved less unique and evocative abilities, and more playing it safe formulaic abilities similar to those of some other subclass. The designers moved more and more towards coralling any really distictive ability idea into being a magic spell and just giving out spells like candy to most subclasses.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It depends what you don't like in the game. However, going class by class, mostly from memory:

Barbarian: Berserker's core feature ties into an exhaustion mechanic nothing else uses and the mechanic just doesn't fit the game overall (might be great rules for some variant version of 5e, but a poor fit for how most people play it). Nearly all the Babarian subclasses are heavily magic based, which kind of goes against the core theme of the class from many people's perspectives.

Bard: All subclasses should have a means of spending their inspiration directly rather than giving it to someone else. I know this goes against some people's core idea of what a Bard should be because it's been primarily a party buffing class in other editions, but it's just two common to have fellow players who just never use the inspiration dice you give out, and they are a major resource for the Bard.

Cleric: Not a big Cleric player so no strong opinions. It always struck me as really dumb that the Forge Cleric didn't have martial weapons proficiency. The Trickery Cleric's "can only buff someone else's stealth" ability should be able to buff themself, because that's how nearly all abilities work in 5e and this cleric is likely weak in. the stealth department anyway. I don't necessarily care that the Twilight Cleric's aura is OP, but it should grant a set amount of temp HP rather than demand a bunch of tedious rolling.

Druid: Moon Druid is simply overpowered vs. all competitors.

Fighter: Arcane Archer needs more uses of its core ability, Purple Dragon Knight is a hopeless trashfire, a few more thematically non-magical subclasses would be good given that this is one of the principle non-magic classes. Post Tasha's version of Bladesinger the Eldritch Knight really needed a comparable replace attack with a cantrip ability.

Monk: Four elements monk simply should not be casting spells with Ki. The Ki budget of Monks is a mess already, and this mega Ki hungry subclass is a mess. Otherwise no strong opinions on subclasses.

Paladin: I feel like the Paladin subclasses are all pretty strong eventually but some have much stronger level 3 abilities than others. Generally a lot of the Channel Divinity abilities are underwhelming (I think Channel Divinity in general narrowed design space for Cleric and Paladin subclasses too much and led to a lot of samey abilities, and a lot nobody bothers to use).

Ranger: Beastmaster is a mess, and powers its mess with a cumbersome rules set. Hunter is strong, but along with Beastmaster doesn't really fit the standardized mold of later subclasses. Gloomstalker is head and shoulders the best. All the post-PHB subclasses double down on making Ranger's abiliies revolve around magic, which many of us don't care for (at least not all the time).

Rogue: Assassin's exellent Assassinate ability is two not directly related abilities confusingly presented as one, and most the rest of their abilities are crap. Inquisitive's Eye for Detail abiliy to make perception and investigation checks as bonus actions is basically useless, because nobody goes around making those sorts of checks in combat, except sometimes as a DM prompted free action. The Scout Survivalist ability is one of many skill granting abiliies that incentivizes going from zero to prodigy, because it is clearly optimal to not waste skill proficiencies until the ability grants expertise in Nature and Survival (but doesn't call it that).

Sorcerer: The fundamental issue with the class was being kept from having enough spells. This was finally solved with the Tasha's subclasses which gave a bunch of free spells. The other subclasses all needed this treatment to be worth playing (and let the Storm Sorcerer have Call Lightning!).

Warlock: Hexblade is the most ridiculously overpowered one level dip in the game for any character with high charisma. The decision to just give Warlock subclasses additional spells they can learn rather than a bunch of free known or prepared spells like subclasses in other classes was confusing and an unnecessary limitation.

Wizard: Transmuter is the weakest, War Wizard is an amazing level 2 and then a bunch of sucky abiliies, making it much more useful as a 2 level dip for an Eldritch Knight or something then as an actual subclass to play for a proper Wizard. Necromancer is the most disappointing because you have to wait to level 5 to do any real Necromancy, and then as an insult you get Animae Dead for free if you wait yet anoher level. I should be something you can cast in some limited way from he point you gain the subclass.

Overall, as the edition developed, and more pronounced still in 2024 D&D, the subclasses involved less unique and evocative abilities, and more playing it safe formulaic abilities similar to those of some other subclass. The designers moved more and more towards coralling any really distictive ability idea into being a magic spell and just giving out spells like candy to most subclasses.

nice break-down.

 

[J-H]

Artificer: Just a little bit underpowered.
Barbarian: I changed Brutal Critical to grant bonus damage = to barbarian level on a crit. Berserker Frenzy should be a 2x PB/day BA attack for free while raging. The rest of the subclass is pretty great. Storm Herald Barb is underpowered and the auras eat its BA, preventing it from having dual wielding or benefiting from the bonus attacks granted by GWM or PAM.
Bard: Too complex. Full casting, skills bonuses, an Inspiration mechanic that can be used for a half dozen different things, and extra abilities on top of all that like Creation bard or random rest and countercharm bonuses make it overwhelming for most players.
Cleric: The base chassis is fine except that once you hit 7th level spells there are very, very few choices available. Trickery cleric looks good but plays badly. Domain spell lists vary widely in quality. Has anyone ever seen a Nature Cleric actually played? Twilight cleric is about twice as powerful as it needs to be.
Druid: Conjure Animals summoning a half dozen + new combatants is banned at my table. Moon Druid is supposedly OP but usually ends up too squishy.
Fighter: It's pretty solid. The broad feat ability lets you get a lot of specialization. Samurai would benefit from Fighting Spirit PB/day instead of a flat 3/day. I have borrowed from 2024 in allowing Indomitable to grant a bonus on the reroll = to fighter level.
Monk: They're thin on ki points until about level 8, but actually really good in terms of mobility and defenses, particularly at high levels. I have never seen a monk be "underpowered" in actual play, but I've also never seen someone try to play a monk like it's a fighter or a sorcerer. +Wis mod to ki points and they are solid. They would also benefit from a bonus ASI at level 10 like Rogue. Astral Monk is the true Soulknife.
Paladin: Paladin is best class. No changes needed. 110 out of 100. Nailed it in 2014, screwed it up in 2024.
Ranger: They are OK, but lacking in defenses against burst damage (no Shield, no Absorb Elements, no good save boosters). The spell list is narrower than the Paladin's, and they have bonus action overload. Just give rangers the entire spell list known instead of limiting them to like 7 spells. Add +Wis to damage against favored enemies, use the Tasha's ACFs, and change the terrible capstone to +Wis to hit against favored enemies. Suddenly they are the best dragon/undead/ooze/demon hunters in the realms.
Rogue: The base class is pretty decent. Most of the subclasses are a bit off in terms of too many features being ribbons. Assassin's first-round crits are a bit too hard to pull off, etc. "Soulknife" should be called psychic thief and turning it into a mediocre psychic archer was a boring idea.
Sorcerer: All subclasses need bonus spells known. Otherwise it's OK.
Warlock: Modify the X spell invocations to give a free cast per day. You can do almost anything with this chassis, and it's almost never overpowered unless you do multiclassing shenanigans.
Wizard: I ban Scribes. It's pretty fine the way it is. I don't like playing as a wizard because I never feel like I have the right spells prepared for the day.

 

[CreamCloud0]

two things, maybe it's just me but:
-i've always had a bit of an issue feeling like the druid is strung between it's two identities of being the shapeshifter and the nature caster and would be better off as just being two classes.
-they've always been overly reluctant to share traits and abilities they feel are 'signature' to the identity a class, monk is the unarmed fighter and 'mobile' class so no other classes have a decent unarmed attacks or baseline increased movement, they wouldn't make a fighter subclass with rage because that's barb's thing or a ranger with wildshape.

 

[Burnside]

I think my issues largely crop up not on the updates for the 2014 subclasses, but with some of the entirely new 2024 subclasses. There are issues of design sloppiness, and also issues of mechanics not being grounded in the fiction. The first I think is an issue for anyone, the second maybe for me more acutely.

Couple of examples that jump out at me from Heroes of Faerun:

Design Sloppiness:

Winter Walker Ranger - the intention here is to be a subclass ideally suited for an adventure such as Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frost Maiden, set in that region.

At level 3, here are two abilities it gets:

Biting Cold. Damage from your weapon attacks, Ranger spells, and Ranger features ignores Resistance to Cold damage.
Polar Strikes. When you hit a creature with an attack roll using a weapon, you can deal an extra 1d4 cold damage to the target, which can take this extra damage only once per turn. When you reach Ranger level 11, this extra damage increases to 1d6.

In addition, 3 of its 5 special bonus Ranger spells involve doing Cold damage: ice knife, ice storm, and cone of cold.

The most dangerous creatures endemic to Icewind Dale are not Resistant to Cold damage; they're Immune to it. So: white dragons, yetis, remorhaz, ice mephit, winter wolf, frost giant etc. - these guys don't care about the Biting Cold ability, are all totally immune to Polar Strikes, and also immune to the 3 "heavy-hitting" damage spells this subclass gets.

This has the effect of making Winter Walkers probably the worst ranger subclass to use in Icewind Dale, rather than, as implied, the best. The creatures that live in Icewind Dale aren't shrugging off Psychic damage from Gloomstalkers or Fey Wanderers, or anything the Hunter can do.

Why does a ranger adapted to life in the frozen north have a suite of abilities useless against the monsters that live there?

Now, you know what the Winter Walker Ranger is actually pretty decent at fighting? Fiends. Many Fiends are Resistant, not Immune, to Cold damage. However, if you read the description of the subclass, the purpose of the Winter Walker ranger isn't meant to be "ranger that fights fiends using cold." This is a case of the subclass designers not taking a few minutes to check the Monster Manual to make sure the existing mechanics support their design intentions. I really think this is a pretty inexcusable case of design sloppiness.

Mechanics Not Grounded in the Fiction:

Banneret Fighter

Here's the description of this subclass:

"Bannerets are paragons of valor and leadership who protect the innocent and rally fellow adventurers to the causes of justice and freedom. Many are knights serving in Cormyr, the Silver Marches, Damara, Chessenta, or other lands across Faerûn. They wander the realms as knights errant, taking the fight against evil beyond their kingdom’s borders.

A Banneret relies on judgment, bravery, and fidelity to the code of chivalry to guide them in defeating evildoers. A lone Banneret is a skilled warrior, but when leading a band of allies one of these warriors can transform even a poorly equipped militia into a ferocious war band."

Here are a couple of their abilities:

"Comprehension. You can cast the Comprehend Languages spell but only as a Ritual. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for it.

Polyglot. You learn one language from the language tables in the Player’s Handbook or chapter 2 of Forgotten Realms: Heroes of Faerûn. When you finish a Long Rest, you can replace a language learned from this benefit with another language you have heard, seen signed, or read in the past 24 hours."

I feel like this is the sort of stuff for which the 2014 edition would have made some attempt to provide a narrative basis. The banneret is...magical? How so? Where's that Comprehend Languages spell coming from?

The banneret speaks Dwarvish, and then goes to bed, and then in the morning they've forgotten how to speak Dwarvish, and now they can speak Elvish? How? Why? Is that also magic? Why are they learning a language in 8 hours and also forgetting a language they could previously speak? What, in terms of the narrative fiction, exactly is happening there? Not the slightest attempt is made by the designers to suggest what, in in-game narrative terms, these abilities represent.

If the banneret is a trained diplomat, maybe they should just get 3 extra languages, and not this weird alien brain power to slot one language in and out of their mind each morning. If you want them to have something like Comprehend Languages, can't that be an ability of some kind, not a spell? Is this because everything now has to fit DNDBeyond's limited functionality?

The Anthropologist background from Tomb of Annihilation got this ability:

"Feature: Adept Linguist. You can communicate with humanoids who don’t speak any language you know. You must observe the humanoids interacting with one another for at least 1 day, after which you learn a handful of important words, expressions, and gestures—enough to communicate on a rudimentary level."

Wouldn't that have been better here than a magic spell? Or if it has to be a spell, can there be an in-game reason this Fighter knows magic?

To me this is an example of the mechanics-first, story-second approach of 2024 that can irk me. Not enough to where I want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but often enough to bug me.

 

[Burnside]

However, to get back on topic. 2014 issues:

Berzerker Barbarian - Exhaustion mechanic is a death spiral, making Frenzy basically not worth using

Four Elements Monk - Ki costs are too high for their mediocre magical abilities

Moon Druid - OP at lower levels due to Wild shape bonus hit points

PHB Sorcerers - need bonus spells like the later Sorcerers got

Valor Bard - the Swords Bard is this subclass but corrected

Mastermind and Inquisitor Rogue - level 3 abilities for both of these are underpowered compared to other rogue subclasses

Thief Rogue - too many abilities are nebulously defined and/or situational. Just give them a Climb Speed at Level 3, come on. 2024 fixed this subclass a lot.

Undying Warlock - the Undead Warlock is this subclass but corrected

Hexblade Warlock - too dramatically and obviously superior to all other Warlock subclasses

Twilight Cleric - Twilight Sanctuary is OP at levels 3-5 and mechanically clunky/too much admin at all levels. Also doesn't need comically powerful suite of other stuff (martial weapons, heavy armor, flight, group darkvision, etc - pick two, you don't need all of that)

Some Wizards - if you're not a Diviner, Evoker, Sage or maybe Bladesinger, your subclass abilities are quite bad in comparison

 

[Stormonu]

I wonder if on the druid it would be worth giving them "Nature Points" and various subclasses possibly give new/alternate abilities to spend them on, akin to the Turn ability of Clerics - the most obvious being the Moon Druid using it for WildShape (or making WildShape the base and each subclass gets something else to spend on, with the Moon Druid doubling down on Wildshape).

 

[FrogReaver]

I've been working on my own custom version of the 2014 D&D rules, and I'm looking for problems, oversights or outright abuses with that version of the game regarding the various subclasses so I don't get caught flatfooted by them in my custom rules. This should be restricted to WotC only content, of course.

most of the issues are with spells and multiclass dips.

Maybe twilight cleric is OP. Champion fighter could use some love.