What are the rules for?

[Micah Sweet]

Somebody's probably written a TTRPG focused on simulating trade, where you might be operating a vessel visiting different ports and exchanging goods of various sorts. If so, weight seems like one reasonable constraint in terms of determining how much cargo (and other stuff, like food and water etc) you can actually bring along.

I can think of at least a couple games where what you're describing absolutely exists and is important.

 

[Fenris-77]

I don't think so. That sounds like your interpretation, not what several rulesets actually say in the book on this topic. Again, except for certain types of games.

Yes, I am familiar with what the books say, and no, this isn't really a matter of interpretation. They aren't advocating for capricious, GM-driven rules chaos where they ignore whatever rules they like as they trip nimbly-bimbly from case to case. The suggestion is given within the context of 'whatever makes you game better'. This is made quite plain in every book where it appears, so I'm, not sure I need to spend any more time explaining it.

 

[Fenris-77]

I agree a lot with the first half. The second half, less so.

There are many games where the player characters function under one specific set of rules, and the setting simply doesn't. This includes games where the PCs are explicitly the "heroes" of the setting that play by their own rules, like Draw Steel or most superhero games. It includes narrative focused games where rules are based on the story flow and happily sacrifice setting details to achieve other goals. And on the extreme end it includes gonzo games where the setting has ostensibly no rules, like Troika or Human Occupied Landfill.

Even D&D varies a lot with having rules about how the setting functions. On one side you have 3e, where all the monsters have stat blocks that effectively match the details of a PC build. On the other side you have early Arneson style DMing, where the setting rules are ostensibly a black box. And you have 5e somewhere in the middle, where Legendary Actions are there specifically to throw a wrench in the rules the characters play by.

So, yes, the rules definitely determine how the characters interact with the setting. But what, if any, rules the setting plays by is a very different discussion, driven by very different wants and needs.

Perhaps I should have expanded my statement. Pretty much every RPG has at least some rules that help the GM 'play' the setting - that's what I mean by 'how the setting works'. Sometimes is a lot of sim-type physics stuff, sometimes it randomizers like encounter rolls, sometimes its adventure fronts, sometimes it's even just a GM agenda. That stuff is all there to frame how the setting functions at the table mechanically, by which I mean both in terms of game mechanics and/or in terms of how the GM manages the conversation and adjudication of player actions.

So yes, different games do the second part very differently, but they all do it.

 

[Fenris-77]

The only case I can think it might matter is if for some reason you have a setting where rope lift systems are in extremely common use, in which case if its more than background color, the weights of everything is liable to come up. I've seen weirder things.

Oh for sure, I was just making a funny.

 

[Fenris-77]

You haven't seen some of the things that seem to matter to some people in the OS space, have you?

And if again, if its liable to come up, then yes, I think its liable to require specific rules, otherwise the weight of the warhouse would not be liable to come up, would it?

You know, now that I think about it, I can think of more reasons to include at least a little something like this in a lot of games. I had to go look up how much a big horse weighs (800-1200 kg btw) and I can think of situations where I'd want to specifically know that, possibly relative to lifting it somehow, or in terms of relative weights. This occurred to me because a lot of OSR games don't include this kind of specific detail and I was thinking about trying to knock over an owlbear with a charging horse and then wondering about what they both weighed.

Anyway, thanks for coming along on my stream of consciousness, the gift shop is to your left as you exit.

 

[A_Carrington]

Almost everything that happens in an RPG is outside the scope of the rules, and that works fine. Other things don’t need rules per se, but they have a right answer you;d like to be able to look up easily. How much does a warhorse weigh? How thick is a guard tower wall? Some things benefit greatly from rules, but not everything.

A horse weighs around 500 pounds, so it has a lifting threshold of 2. Very large horses can get up to a threshold of 3.
The thickness of a wall is determined by the GM. Stone has a base Structure of 10d.

I don't know why you think it's silly or difficult to write rules that cover most stuff you expect to experience in the game. It's quite easy and reasonable, and should be the bare minimum expectation of any competent designer who is being paid to create a decent product.

The only case I can think it might matter is if for some reason you have a setting where rope lift systems are in extremely common use, in which case if its more than background color, the weights of everything is liable to come up. I've seen weirder things.

Or if you want to lift a horse, or throw it at someone, or determine if it can be supported by a bridge, or are weighing it in preparation for a transaction, or any of the other reasons why you'd want rules for the weights of objects and beings in the world. I don't care how likely I think it is to be relevant. If it exists in the game world, it has weight. And the players may choose to interact with it, in whatever manner they see fit, and they do not need any justification for any decision.

 

[mmadsen]

A horse weighs around 500 pounds, so it has a lifting threshold of 2. Very large horses can get up to a threshold of 3.

A pony might weigh 500 pounds. A warhorse weighs more like 1,300 pounds.

The thickness of a wall is determined by the GM. Stone has a base Structure of 10d.

A game setting full of castles and towers should probably provide some basic facts and examples.

I don't know why you think it's silly or difficult to write rules that cover most stuff you expect to experience in the game. It's quite easy and reasonable, and should be the bare minimum expectation of any competent designer who is being paid to create a decent product.

Why would you think I think that?

Or if you want to lift a horse, or throw it at someone, or determine if it can be supported by a bridge, or are weighing it in preparation for a transaction, or any of the other reasons why you'd want rules for the weights of objects and beings in the world. I don't care how likely I think it is to be relevant. If it exists in the game world, it has weight. And the players may choose to interact with it, in whatever manner they see fit, and they do not need any justification for any decision.

What are you arguing against?

 

[A_Carrington]

A pony might weigh 500 pounds. A warhorse weighs more like 1,300 pounds.

A game setting full of castles and towers should probably provide some basic facts and examples.

Why would you think I think that?

What are you arguing against?

Yes. That's why it has a lifting threshold of 3, and not 2. Like I said.

The setting is designed by the GM. A rulebook can't tell you the thickness of a wall in your setting. It doesn't even know what the walls in my setting are made of.

I'm not arguing anything. I was responding to "the only case where I think it might matter" and providing additional examples. A post is not arguing with you because it quotes you. As far as I can tell, we agree on most things.

 

[billd91]

So, yes, the rules definitely determine how the characters interact with the setting. But what, if any, rules the setting plays by is a very different discussion, driven by very different wants and needs.

The term that works best for me that covers what the rules do is operationalize. The rules operationalize how the characters interact with the setting - they give us, the players and the game masters, processes and procedures for handling what a player wants to do and how that action is resolved.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh for sure, I was just making a funny.

As I've noted, my sense of humor is more than slightly atrophied.