What are your problems with Healing/Dying mechanics in 4E

Destil

Explorer
Re: The original poster. A good simple rule that increases the grityness of 4E is that every failed death save costs you a healing surge, instead of a strike. And when you're out of surges and fail a save you die.

I haven't seen the math around healing break in a real game (damage vs. HP totals). If I were really worried about it I'd most likely have PCs only recover 1d4 (possibly + con mod) surges per extended rest. In fact that's my house rule for the Mournlands, since it's not supposed to be a friendly place to heal (warforged get 2d4+Con mod by spending 4 hours of their rest repairing damage, to try and keep up with the 3E rules).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Stalker0

Legend
Re: The original poster. A good simple rule that increases the grityness of 4E is that every failed death save costs you a healing surge, instead of a strike. And when you're out of surges and fail a save you die.

Put this one in the house rules Destil, its got potential!
 

Keldryn

Adventurer
And BLEEDING TO DEATH.

Now, there are ways to work this so it's sorta believable, mostly involving a "spiritual" definition of hit points, or a big ol' helping of meta-narrative wherein you retroactively decide whether the PC was dying or not based on whether the warlord got to him in time. I used to spend a lot of time on ENWorld propounding the spiritual hit point approach (the meta-narrative solution would absolutely kill immersion for me).

That's how I handle it -- if the Warlord's cry revives the fallen character, then he wasn't actually bleeding to death after all. The wound was more superficial than it looked. Narrating the description only after the results have been determined is a different mindset than older versions of D&D, but I prefer it and find it makes the game a lot more flexible. YMMV. Nothing in the rules states that an unconscious character making death saves is actually bleeding to death... he's simply in danger of dying; the cause of death can be described in whichever way is appropriate to the situation.

If you don't describe the character as bleeding to death when he goes down, then there isn't anything to retroactively "meta-narrate" into something less serious. Sometimes all that other characters see is that the fallen character is bleeding, but when the character is revived, it wasn't major artery that was hit. If the character dies, then it was a major artery and lost too much blood. If a character goes down and isn't visibly bleeding but ends up dying, then he could have died from internal bleeding.

Hit Points in D&D are a very abstract measure of a character's staying power, and have never stood up well to any non-superficial analysis. The way that I play Hit Points is generally that a serious, life-threatening physical injury has only been inflicted if a character has been reduced to 0 Hit Points and is unable to use a healing surge. I admit it's not for everybody.

(...And as I think about it, my proposed solution earlier in the thread wouldn't actually help with this part. Warlords being able to stop people dying with an inspiring word just doesn't work for me no matter how I slice it.)

If the Warlord was able to stop someone from dying with an inspiring word, then that character obviously wasn't as injured as everybody thought. :) This isn't entirely unrealistic.

One word: Minions. I have watched a bard kill several minions in rapid succession by yelling insults at them. They had not been touched by any physical attack.

The flavor text of the Vicious Mockery power says that "You unleash a string of insults at your foe, weaving them with bardic magic to send the creature into a blind rage." It inflicts Psychic damage from the Arcane power source. The string of insults could be the words to a spell which inflicts psychic damage upon the foes. Or the minions get whipped up into such a fanatical blind rage that their heads explode. Or if they happen to be standing next to each other, they kill each other. It's a clearly magic effect -- not simply insulting words -- and it inflicts psychic damage.

If a character crouches down over an unconscious foe and spends six seconds sawing on that foe's unprotected throat with a dagger, I don't think it's too much to ask that the foe should die most of the time. Even in combat.

If combat is too hectic for characters to stop and take a breather (a short rest to spend healing surges and regain encounter powers), then they generally don't have the luxury of completely letting their guards down and focusing on slitting a throat. As long as there are opponents who could possibly threaten a character, I think it's reasonable to say that they still need to inflict lethal damage on a helpless character. It's a concession for gameplay reasons, but it doesn't strain my suspension of disbelief too much.
 

Kurtomatic

First Post
My favorite LFR character failed 3 death saves in a row just this past weekend, so thanks for trivializing my loss! ;)

Re: The original poster. A good simple rule that increases the grityness of 4E is that every failed death save costs you a healing surge, instead of a strike. And when you're out of surges and fail a save you die.
On the other hand, this rule would have required me to fail something like 10 death saves before eating a raise dead sandwich. The scenario here is a defender in a group with no leader, and there were few opportunities to spend surges before I finally went down. I think surges are an awesome resource mechanic, but there are some strange artifacts in use. The random nature of character parties in RGPA games highlights weirdness that probably doesn't show in most home campaigns.
 

keterys

First Post
Thanks for all of the great responses. I did predict a bunch of the complaints, but there were definitely a few I did not anticipate. Very cool.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone who feels that healing is insufficient without a leader? One of the goals of 4e was to allow folks to have more party flexibility, but you don't hear very often about people playing without them.
 
Last edited:

Jack99

Adventurer
Thanks for all of the great responses. I did predict a bunch of the complaints, but there were definitely a few I did not anticipate. Very cool.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone who feels that healing is insufficient without a leader? One of the goals of 4e was to allow folks to have more party flexibility, but you don't hear very often about people playing without them.

Some nights, I think 4e works better without a healer, than with one. Of course, I usually wake up, and can't make up my mind if it was a vision or not.

With that said, I think the (few) games which had no cleric during my last campaign, went fairly well - much better than anticipated.
 

Herschel

Adventurer
I've found leaderless parties don't work very well. Once the defender goes down, the back line gets destroyed. Then again, I play in some groups with a lot of ranged characters and a usually slim front line in the first place. There's a whole lot of squish going on.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
It is not that bad. But any group without a character competent with Treat Injury is looking for a battering. A few levels in, with a feat invested in surgery, and healing by skill use becomes fairly impressive.

How often in Star Wars do you see one member of the gang sewing up another? The Star Wars universe as seen in the movies looks like it should be even less of a "must have a cleric" game than D&D, and requiring such in a game is problematic to say the least.

The feeling in my group is that healing surges would make the Saga HP system work really well. As it stands, it promotes a style of play counter to the Star Wars films.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Thanks for all of the great responses. I did predict a bunch of the complaints, but there were definitely a few I did not anticipate. Very cool.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone who feels that healing is insufficient without a leader? One of the goals of 4e was to allow folks to have more party flexibility, but you don't hear very often about people playing without them.

We played a lot of our first games (from levels 1-10) without a leader in the party. The game worked astonishingly well. What happens is that the party can't continue as long, and they're in a lot more trouble when someone goes down. Having a leader increases the survivability of the group tremendously, but the game works without one.

Actually, I've run a lot of games where one of the roles was missing: sometimes a controller, sometimes a defender. You notice their absence. Lacking a defender makes the group a lot more vulnerable. Ditto the controller - my group is exceptionally good at controlling the battlefield, and without the controller they're in a lot more danger.

Cheers!
 


Remove ads

Top