What are your problems with Healing/Dying mechanics in 4E

[keterys]

I wanted to brainstorm a bit about houserules for 4e involving healing (and dying, which seems sorta related). Accordingly, I'm looking to see what problems people run into, to see which could be addressed at all.

I understand that this topic could induce rancor, but please keep it civil and productive. 'I hate healing surges' and 'Martial healing doesn't make sense to me' I can work with, but please don't use it as a platform to just bash 4e, as I am looking at ways to modify that system to make people happier with it, not to sell them on some other system.

Any help much appreciated!

 

[hailstop]

My problem is that it's too hard to die!

I've never had a PC die due to failing 3 death saves. At higher levels it's very tough to get to -ve bloodied, because of the rule that any healing when below 0 raises you to 0, then adds the healing.

 

[Sadrik]

I think that damage is too low in general. The average damage to HP ratio is off.

Surges/HP as morale/healing/death saves, heck it just doesnt work for me, good luck.

You also might find more play in the 4e house rules forum.

 

[Woas]

Not really just 4th Edition but the HP system in general regardless of which game uses it, IMO it is too sterile.

 

[Markn]

I have several issues - and to be honest - healing surges is one of the worst things in 4e. While I like the concept, its implementation IMO is terrible.

1) There is a big discrepency in available healing between a 1 leader party and a 2 leader party (or more). In a 2 leader party, healing is effectively unlimited and the party is never really threatened unless you ramp up encounter difficulties (which then leades to other issues like long combats) and tactically sound parties requires a much higher challenge than the book suggests, IME.

2) I don't like the set healing surges for a day mechanic. It seems somewhat artificial (relatively speaking of course). It makes the first few encounters nothing but a resource usage sort of thing, and possibly the last fight of the day, a bit of concern for PC lives - but even then, not really.

3) I also find it tough to accept a PC being unconscious and totally at full within a round. It happened in 3e but there was a measuring stick a DM could use for that - the heal spell. No heal, no full HPs. Now it happens every combat. Whats kind of funny is, 4e has taken away the "gotcha" that players experienced in previous editions and has kind of put it on the DM now.

I would strongly prefere a mechanic where PCs had a set number of surges per encounter as oppossed to per day. Its much easier for PCs and DMs to determine the point that retreat is necessary.

 

[keterys]

Not really just 4th Edition but the HP system in general regardless of which game uses it, IMO it is too sterile.

I suspect dropping the hp system entirely is beyond my goals. In my initial self brainstorm I put down ways to make things grittier, with some notable things including adding rules for bleeding, wounds (ala earthdawn, star wars' condition track, or Ari's rules as examples), and acquiring diseases from injury, which might be the kind of thing that would address your problem, but I don't know.

Can you cite any examples of systems that do it right for you?

I think that damage is too low in general. The average damage to HP ratio is off.

Surges/HP as morale/healing/death saves, heck it just doesnt work for me, good luck.

You also might find more play in the 4e house rules forum.

Damage is mostly out of scope. Reduced healing is totally one of the things to consider, but if the problem is 'not getting damaged enough' in the sense of not even really needing healing. Yeah, that's a whole different ball of wax.

I'm not really looking for creating the house rules here or looking for help in creating them. I'm looking more for actual objections... and this forum is definitely the one to look for people with objections about 4e, as far as I can tell.

 

[Markn]

I think that damage is too low in general. The average damage to HP ratio is off.

This is very true. Compare the damage to max PC hp ratio on 1st level and then compare it to most other levels and you will see that the damage that creatures do, is far less. Forex, instead of 1/5 total hps being the damage on 1st level it drops to 1/7 or 1/8 (these are guesses, as I don't know the actual amount but I guarantee the ratio changes).

 

[Markn]

This falls under the dying section:

Coup de grace is not very aptly named. On higher levels its virtually impossible to cdg anyone. You can't do enough damage.

 

[keterys]

1) There is a big discrepency in available healing between a 1 leader party and a 2 leader party (or more).

Very good point. Technically I suppose there's a really big discrepancy between 0 and 1 leader parties, too, but there's an interesting balance act there.

3) I also find it tough to accept a PC being unconscious and totally at full within a round.

Do you mean through use of multiple powers? If a single power, how? I'm not even sure at all how you'd manage to get more than 3/4 of someone's health back in one power in 4e, and even that requires real effort or only applies for a level or so (when a 6th level warlord gets that 2 surge power, has a high charisma, has multiple items that add to healing surges)

Coup de grace is not very aptly named. On higher levels its virtually impossible to cdg anyone. You can't do enough damage.

Fair enough. For clarity, do you mean as a PC against monsters, or monsters against PCs?

 

[billd91]

I don't like healing surges as implemented in 4e, but I do like the second wind rules from Star Wars Saga Edition. The idea of a hero being knocked around and then surging back into the fight is a good and dramatic one. But 4e terribly cheapens it by making it so easy to invoke and frequently used. SWSE limits it to once a day when at half max hp or fewer (in 4e terms, bloodied). I like that much better.

4e then compounds the problem by having healing potions use the PC's own healing surges to heal up.

The one bright spot with 4e healing surges that I can see is the paladin's laying on of hands. I think it's pretty cool that a paladin sacrifices his own healing ability to heal others. But that's not enough for me to keep the system.

If I had my druthers, I'd limit the healing surge to once a day when bloodied. But I'd also include feats/daily utility powers that allow one additional surge/day like SWSE does (I think you can get up to 2 extras with a talent and a feat).
I wouldn't have leader healing powers use the target's healing surge. I'd just make them encounter powers (or twice/encounter powers such as they are) with a limit on how often they can be used on a single target per short rest. I'd also build some dailies that do significantly greater healing (2-3x surge value).
Healing potions and other magic wouldn't run off anyone's healing surges. They'd just add hp.
I think the surge value of 1/4 max hp would still be valuable. I'd base all leader healing powers on some multiple of the target's surge value. I'd do the same with all healing potions (no burning a healing surge to gain back fewer hp than using a surge).

And since Rocky Balboa usually comes back swinging hard when he surges, I'd give the PC an offensive as well as defensive bonus when he surges.