What balances the Warforged?

[0-hr]

Sorry, this is a bit of a rant. Feel free to skip it - my questions boils down to the subject line.

I had initially thought that Warforged got race-specific item (components, docents, etc.) becase they could not use normal items like everyone else. Now I see that they are in addition to normal items. I don't mean that they can wear two amulets, but a warforged can make a claim to the first Amulet of Health the party finds, and still retain exclusive rights to any Docents (or other attached or embedded components) the group comes across. I'd love to have a Wand Sheath for my character at some point (the ultimate in covert UMD) but I'm mear flesh and bone - not the favored of WotC. :\

I know I sound peevish and bitter but the more warforged mechanics I see, the more annoyed I get. In trying to form an enlightened opinion, I first looked at the racial abilities and was shocked and appalled that anyone would have the audacity to call that ECL 0. Then I look at the feats and see Adamantine full plate (complete with DR) free for a feat at level 1. Bleh. Well how about Prestige classes? Warforged Juggernaught - 'nuff said. And now magic items are the same thing. Warforged get everything everyone else does, and then there own specific (and more powerful) stuff on top. How can that possibly be balanced?

Just to top it off, the setting also includes a mysterious, powerful, and ancient race now long gone - leaving behind magic items and artifacts that only warforged can use. Warforged were only invented 30 years ago. Sure is convenient that there just happened to be a compatible race in the nearby continent of ruins - a race with a penchant for leaving warforged-only treasure scattered about.

I honestly believe that the warforged mechanics were designed to hit that demographic of player who does nothing but fight; the one who is silent at the table unless initiative has been rolled; the one who wants to be on every watch, uses Charisma as a dump stat, and tries to be armed, fully armored, and on guard literally every second. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing (I play that way often enough myself). But I've never seen the style so specifically pandered too before this.

Of course, this being WotC, I should probably not be surprised. An interesting note is that the warforged do not appear at all in the early articles about Eberron - not even the Dragon issue that details the new races. Everyone else is there, but no warforged. That makes me think that maybe they were added late in the process - probably as the result of marketing research rather than good game design. That might explain the lack of proper testing, and it would increase my respect for Mr. Baker a bit at least.

Anyway, is there a big drawback that I'm missing here? (And anyone who can only come up with "roleplaying consequences" just proves my point )

 

[Slaved]

To start off the base statistic adjustment that they get are unbalanced in a bad way. +2 to con is nice, most people like con, but the -2 to wisdom and charisma hurts for a lot of classes and options.

Plus your first level feat is effectively gone. Most likely it will be used for some body feat since you cannot change your armor later. If you want to have better than a +2 base armor then you need to spend that feat, if you want to get rid of that arcane spell failure you need to spend that feat. Classes that are ok with leaving it as is typically want either wisdom or charisma.

Favored class fighter? ouch.

Mostly it is a class that is a pile of good and bad. Some people feel that one outweighs the other but I think that most of those issues are campaign dependent along with what their favorite style of play is. If you think fighters are great and the campaign is centered around the evil icky poison spread across the land then warforged and dwarfs will rule the day, if you like playing wisdom or charisma based characters humans are likely to come out far ahead.

 

[Nifft]

Fleshies get grafts and symbionts, and IMC can host elemental spirits.

Warforged get other goodies.

I don't really see the problem.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elemental]

I had initially thought that Warforged got race-specific item (components, docents, etc.) becase they could not use normal items like everyone else. Now I see that they are in addition to normal items. I don't mean that they can wear two amulets, but a warforged can make a claim to the first Amulet of Health the party finds, and still retain exclusive rights to any Docents (or other attached or embedded components) the group comes across. I'd love to have a Wand Sheath for my character at some point (the ultimate in covert UMD) but I'm mear flesh and bone - not the favored of WotC. :\

Or you could just make slotless items with a "can only be used by humans / gnomes / whoever" restriction, for about the same cost.

Stealth Use Magic Device? Sounds like you want a Glove of Storing there.

I know I sound peevish and bitter but the more warforged mechanics I see, the more annoyed I get. In trying to form an enlightened opinion, I first looked at the racial abilities and was shocked and appalled that anyone would have the audacity to call that ECL 0. Then I look at the feats and see Adamantine full plate (complete with DR) free for a feat at level 1. Bleh.

Which can never be taken off. Let's hope you never ever need to make a Hide, Move Silently, Jump, Balance or Swim check, eh? And from actual play, trust me that the DR isn't that big a deal except against multiple weak attacks.

And don't forget you're using a feat slot to get good armour--after all, if you go into a martial class without that feat, you'll never get good armour without using magic. Your human buddy will by using the full plate he bought a while ago. You have a choice between using a feat for this benefit in place of Weapon Focus, Power Attack or the like or being permanently stuck with a +2 armour bonus.

Well how about Prestige classes? Warforged Juggernaught - 'nuff said.

It compares favourably to the Warshaper in the hands of a changeling, Green Star Adept, Dread Necromancer, or the Walker in the Waste.

And now magic items are the same thing. Warforged get everything everyone else does--

Save bonuses vs all spells, free weapon proficiencies, a bonus feat...all things that warforged don't get.

Just to top it off, the setting also includes a mysterious, powerful, and ancient race now long gone - leaving behind magic items and artifacts that only warforged can use. Warforged were only invented 30 years ago. Sure is convenient that there just happened to be a compatible race in the nearby continent of ruins - a race with a penchant for leaving warforged-only treasure scattered about.

That provides quite a cool plot point and memorable adversaries in Secrets of Xen'Drik.

I honestly believe that the warforged mechanics were designed to hit that demographic of player who does nothing but fight; the one who is silent at the table unless initiative has been rolled; the one who wants to be on every watch, uses Charisma as a dump stat, and tries to be armed, fully armored, and on guard literally every second. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing (I play that way often enough myself). But I've never seen the style so specifically pandered too before this.

Damn right. They should play a race that plainly isn't designed for fighting, like the half-orc. Or one that isn't designed to wear armour all the time with hardly any penalties, like the dwarf. Or one that doesn't have a CHA penalty like the half-orc, dwarf or shifter.

 

[werk]

I originally hated the WF, but I've warmed to them after seeing them in play. I think the real problem with them is that unless the party is set up to be WF friendly, the WF is on his own for repairs or heals unless he is incap.

Like Slaved said, restrictive stat adjustments, racial feats, and I'll add lack of healing. These combine to make something that is mediocre as a tank in a regular party, and worse in other roles. (In parties designed for WF support, whole different ballgame.)

 

[0-hr]

Fleshies get grafts and symbionts

I'm fairly new to Eberron (and just a player, not a DM). Could you give me a pointer to these grafts and symbionts? If they are equivalent to the warforged items, then that will go a long way towards equipment balance (except for the free adamantine full plate at level one of course ).

EDIT: Also, we're starting at level 1. Is the Adamantine full plate really balanced there? I can see it not being a big deal at level 10, but out of the gate it just looks like a HUGE advantage (ie. What if the human fighter wanted to start with the same thing, even if he vowed never to upgrade? I think the DM would laugh at the idea.).

 

[Voadam]

Of course, this being WotC, I should probably not be surprised. An interesting note is that the warforged do not appear at all in the early articles about Eberron - not even the Dragon issue that details the new races. Everyone else is there, but no warforged. That makes me think that maybe they were added late in the process - probably as the result of marketing research rather than good game design. That might explain the lack of proper testing, and it would increase my respect for Mr. Baker a bit at least.

Umm, I bought the pdf version of the dragon with the warforged in it. I forget the issue number though, but if you look at the paizo site in their download section under dragon you will find them pretty quickly, I think there are only 16 or so dragons available in pdf format.

 

[FalcWP]

It absolutely depends on the campaign. And on the compositon of your party as well.

No artificer? Unless the wizard or sorcerer is willing to learn the repair spells, you're going to be hurting when it comes to healing. On top of that, they can *not* heal naturally, which is the most common way to heal at low levels (in my experience). Which means you're asking the cleric to burn even more spells, or you *really* need someone capable of doing the whole Repair thing. If that's the case, I think whoever is investing that much in healing you probably has a better claim on some items than you.

There's a whole big backstory on why there are warforged components in Xen'drik, which boils down to the fact that House Cannith found the technology in the ruins of the giants and adapted it. Regardless, most of this stuff doesn't come up unless the game goes to Xen'drik.

As far as them getting something nobody else does... there aren't any Dragonmarked Warforged. (And, no, no Dragonmarked Changelings, Kalashtar, or Shifters, either, but that's neither here nor there).

For the armor thing... they're never going to be able to use any new armor they find. Which, if you're the party's tank (the only role they're designed for), sorta sucks. If you can never use any magical armor you find, then I think you might be entitled to some of the other magical items you might find. I'll admit, though, that giving them Light Fortification may be a bit much.

Certain spells that would not hurt the other races hurt warforged. Want to scare a warforged player? Put in some rust monsters.

For their great immunities... yeah, they're good. In the right campaign. Poison is relatively common; sleep doesn't matter after a couple levels; paralysis comes up now and then; I don't recall ever running into nausea; fatigue is the one that really makes a difference, if the 'forged takes a level of Barbarian.

Then there's their penalties. +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. There's the big belief that Charisma is the ultimate dump stat, and, in some campaigns (sound familiar yet?) it is. But Eberron tends to involve more interaction and subterfuge, which means taking drops in almost all of your interaction skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Sense Motive...) is going to hurt. On top of that, it means Artificers, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Monks, Rangers, Paladins, and Sorcerers are all weakened, as are certain types of Rogues. Which leaves... Barbarians, Fighters, Wizards, and thuggish Rogues as the types that aren't really hurt by those stat penalties (just going off core).

Oh... and, again, in the right campaign, they're not going to get much respect. Might not even be acknowledged. Like you said, its what some players want, and that's fine. But it can make it difficult to get NPCs to care if you need them to.

Overall? I'd say they're on the strong side of LA 0, but certainly with enough drawbacks, to make it fairly balanced. I've had warforged in a few Eberron games (both that I've played in and DMed) and I haven't seen anything unbalancing.

 

[Voadam]

I'm fairly new to Eberron (and just a player, not a DM). Could you give me a pointer to these grafts and symbionts? If they are equivalent to the warforged items, then that will go a long way towards equipment balance (except for the free adamantine full plate at level one of course ).

I think these are from Libris Mortis (necromantic grafts of undead stuff) and Lords of Madness (for fleshy aberration stuff).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I like warforged, but the warforged in my group is by far the most powerful character. In part that's because he's an artificer, which is a powerful class, and on top of that he's using the subsitution levels for warforged artificers, which are even more powerful. Still, by the book, he is significantly more effective than anyone else in the group.

I'm not sure how I'd balance warforged with other races to maintain the flavor without adding a LA, but from my experience the race should be +1 LA.

In my game, I'm simply creating a much larger number of anti-warforged spells, abilities, and magic items.