What Changes to Inzeladun?

[InzeladunMaster]

I am going to open up a whole can of worms that may well upset and anger everyone...

So, what changes would you like to see in Inzeladun? In the past, it was pretty much "bring what you want" to it. If a player wanted a certain god or goddess from a certain pantheon, I allowed it. If they wanted an invasion, I brought it on. If they wanted to play a wizard or sorceress, even though I disliked it, I allowed it. Psionics, prestige classes, races... if someone wanted to play it, I pretty much allowed it. Flying boats? I put them in. Walking castles? There. Dream worlds? Okay. Planes? No problem. Want your psyche split between a lich and a vampire? Done. Want to make friends with a black dragon? Okey dokey. Want a blue-skinned genie for a love-slave? Heck yah! Resurrection? Sure. Want to become a god? I can allow that.

Obviously this brought about a fairly incohesive world that ultimately fell apart beneath the sheer weight of all the stuff the players and I were bringing to the table. I want to get rid of the gods as real, definable entities that can walk and talk, as well as demolish the cleric class - and make wizards/sorcerers more akin to the Conan scholar class.

No criticisms of past mistakes, please. Just what should be allowed and what should not be allowed in the future. Or should I continue as it was in the past, and let the players bring whatever they can imagine to the game without restriction?

If players want different stuff, should we play a different world when necessary and keep Inzeladun with a certain feel or atmosphere, or let imaginations run free?

Let's try to do this with minimal upset and keep it constructive.

 

[Grimhelm]

My ultimate opinion of Inzeladun's current state of affairs is this (and please understand that I have lots of minor challenges, but i think it is important to start with the overlying first...):

Inzeladun is a world envisioned first and foremost within the mind if Vincent N. Darlage. Keep it that way. If players have desires that don't fit into how Inzeladun is as a world, then they need to play in another world. World's do not shift upon the whims of a few players. Characters can affect change, but players cannot. This is a crucial distinction. If an idea is brought forth by a player, it should be considered carefully and either incorporated or vetoed based upon the overlying vision of the world, not to appease a player who affects nothing. Let the characters affect the major change. Inzeladun, now, has lost its cohesion. This is not a criticism. It is just a fact.

In some respects, the world needs to be gutted, institutions torn down, and long standing ideas abandoned. Freshness is needed. It is very difficult to be creative in an institution. I feel that for the game to be fresh, a change in the way the game is run is also needed. Games should become more ethereal and less written down on paper. It is difficult to be creative when you are being led by your nose.

Luckily, so much background is already there that improvising over it should be easy. Unfortunately, sometimes this background becomes too important and takes over the foreground, if you know what I mean...

I fear a lot of this might actually have evolved from Vince and I playing too damned well together as "jazz musicians" that we ultimately became bored with each other and decided to ignore each other. In some sense, Vince and I purposefully shut down the tendency to improvise together because we knew each other too well to be surprised by any of the results. The ultimate result was that improvisation fell totally by the way side and the total dynamic of the game became very predictable and stagnant.

I think the game is ultimately about living! It is about living out fantasies. Yet, life does not like a cage. Living things do not like to be stifled. They like to roam free.

I hope this is making sense. In some respect this is what I have tried to do with Arenaia. It could be done with Inzeladun. In the end, it might be as easy as not writing down a damned thing before the adventure! Sometimes vague ideas are the best. Letting the characters and our own (the DM's) off-the-cuff creativity rule the day is the most invigorating aspect of the game.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

I say, get rid of the magic users and the gods. One, this will shorten combat in one aspect. Not having to wait 45 minutes, while the caster goes through 1,000's of spells.

I do like psionics, but that can go to.

 

[fred_jaboobi]

a thought or three

If you want to reduce magic, as stated in other threads why not remove psion, sorcerer, druid, cleric and wizard from the game? You could modify the bard to be the all-powerful spell caster. Paladins would be used more then as clerics and rangers could move up and take the place of druids.

Another way to cut down on magic might be to get rid of the rule that a wizard/sorcerer can pick their own spells. Let the DM decide what spells would be available to them if any and if a wizard or sorcerer wanted a specific spell or spells then an adventure/campaign could be built around that?

What about removing magical creation feats? That way you cannot end up with spell casters that can create magical weapons and items for each specific event that the group faces, they will have to use whatever they have. This puts the control of magic on the DM. So you could have a group of 15th level characters with only a +2 sword as their most powerful item.

Artifacts could be quite jelous magic items where they will not work of you if yoru character has any other magical items.

Just some ideas I have kicked around.

 

[Grimhelm]

Yes. These are decent solutions. In Arenaia I have just promoted the idea that using magic is dangerous for several reasons: There are religions in the world who will seek to kill you. And, there are other powerful wizards who do not want competition, so will seek to kill you.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

If you want to reduce magic, as stated in other threads why not remove psion, sorcerer, druid, cleric and wizard from the game? You could modify the bard to be the all-powerful spell caster. Paladins would be used more then as clerics and rangers could move up and take the place of druids..

That does not resolve the issue. I tried that. Only a complete revamping of the magic system works to reduce magic. Also the monsters and CRs assume a certain amount of magic. If we did this, then everyone would be bards, paladins and rangers - or at least multiclassed into them.

Another way to cut down on magic might be to get rid of the rule that a wizard/sorcerer can pick their own spells. Let the DM decide what spells would be available to them if any and if a wizard or sorcerer wanted a specific spell or spells then an adventure/campaign could be built around that?

That involves a lot of DM metagaming and guesswork - and really nerfs the spellcasters to the point of uselessness - and still does not resolve the issue that the more interesting monsters will become impossible to defeat.

What about removing magical creation feats? That way you cannot end up with spell casters that can create magical weapons and items for each specific event that the group faces, they will have to use whatever they have. This puts the control of magic on the DM. So you could have a group of 15th level characters with only a +2 sword as their most powerful item.

Again, there is the issue that the monsters require a certain level of magic. I tried this early with the Roland Campaign - the monsters will trash the PCs. One will have to find a way to lower the AC of DnD monsters so 15th level folks with only +2 swords will hit - and you have to figure out what to do with Character AC, since they won't have magic armour or spells, the monsters will wreak unholy havoc on them.

Artifacts could be quite jelous magic items where they will not work of you if yoru character has any other magical items.

Just some ideas I have kicked around.

Same issues. It does not work with DnD. If you mess around with the magic system, the entire system gets so far out of whack it is unplayable.

The only system that I have personally played that resolves this issue is Conan. However, I have heard Iron Heroes and Grim Tales also have resolved this issue, so I am looking into them.

 

[Fyrestryke]

Is anyone interested in playing a game of Iron Heroes four weeks from this coming Sunday on the 13th of November?

I would be able to be prepared to run such an adventure and I can provide everyone with all the information they need to craft characters before hand.

We'll use the stock IH world that figured on no magic (or little magic), skills, weapons, and carnage.

Who's in?

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Jason is planning on running Star Wars that weekend. We can play IH two weeks after that, if that is okay.

 

[thormagni]

The only system that I have personally played that resolves this issue is Conan. However, I have heard Iron Heroes and Grim Tales also have resolved this issue, so I am looking into them.

I don't really know why it hasn't occurred to me before, but Game of Thrones is another D20 fantasy system that might prove sufficient for everyone's needs. Although it has some ties to its own game world (based on George R.R. Martin's novels) that is a world of low-to-no magic. There is a scholar class (called maesters) and a clerical class called godsworn who while religious have no divine powers that I can recall outside of inspiring people to do better in their endeavors.

The base classes:
Artisan
Godsworn
Hunter
Knave
Maester
Man-at-arms
Noble
Raider

PC Prestige classes
Bloodrider (much like the Mongol horde)
Brother of the Kingsguard (Knight protector)
Commander
Knight
Night's Watch Ranger
Night's Watch Steward
Spy
Water Dancer (swashbuckler)

NPC classes
Commoner
Godswife of the Great Shepherd (folklorists and midwives)
Night's Watch Builder
Maegi (the sorta spellcaster's although here is a quote "Much of the so-called magic practiced by a Maegi is really knowledge of folkore and herbal remedies that have been passed down by oral tradition.")

The combat system is mini-less and abstract while being especially lethal. The magic system, such as it is, is easily removable. (In the GoT world, magic existed somewhat more commonly in the distant past. Today it is seen as a wive's tale and myth, although there are some large artifacts left such as gigantic castles and huge ice walls raised by magic. Some people, mostly NPCs, have a tenous ability to tap into that ancient source, but there are no D&D style spellcasters.) There are no magic weapons or armor to speak of. And the skill system is especially designed to enhance the flavor and importance of skills.

And of course, I have $150 worth of books for the game, so it would tickle me to actually use it. OG has my extra copy of the rules should anyone want to take a look at it, or I can print a "table copy" for someone's perusal for about $22, if I remember correctly.

Obviously, parts would have to be adopted for a new game world, such as House membership has a great role in GoT (comparable to race in most D20 games) but probably not so much anywhere else.

 

[fred_jaboobi]

The only system that I have personally played that resolves this issue is Conan. However, I have heard Iron Heroes and Grim Tales also have resolved this issue, so I am looking into them.

I think you have just answered your own question on how to bring Inzeladun back into line with your ideal. Switch to Conan rules.