What class is this character/concept?

[LDX]

Hi everyone,


First of all, I must admit that if I’m writing these lines, it’s mostly because I’m desperate. I think my problem is a bit uncommon since I found nothing on it at all on the Internet, but well, I thought a forum would be a good place to ask. And before you start reading this wall of text, sorry for the English mistakes or bad formulation, I’m really trying to get into the language.



To be short, what I need is a class (or classes) for an NPC I have in a game I DM.



I mostly DM using a story telling system, I’m not too deep into the D&D rules, I mean, I’ve been playing D&D (3.5, and this is what I’m looking for) for years and I know how to play, I just prefer all the roleplay the game involves instead of sticking on the rules and power game. When I play, I don’t want to get a Vorpal sword to hit for 1230 d8, but I want my character to live something important. That mind is reflected in the games I DM, I want my player not to be as badass as they could be by numbers, but by what their characters actually are.



At best, it lands to some epic storylines with everyone being damn happy to live something more than just numbers. At worst, players hate playing with me because they’re not able to get what they want from D&D, which is often being as powerful as they can, choosing every feats or skills to the single goal of being the best. Now I do have a group loving the way I work (I’ve been playing with them for years) but I would still appreciate to correct some flaws I have, which means pay a little more attention to the rules and not only do what I want to do because I feel like that. They accept the idea, but they would like to explain it by the rules, which I accepted to do but got lost for the character I’m talking. Let’s see who he is.



At first, I thought it could be an ancient godless cleric, considering he was able to cast spells and stuff related to life and death unlike a mage could do. He wasn’t a necromancer using skeletons or anything, he only used his own powers to achieve his goals. That obviously means he never worshipped any god, but had a strict moral, he had so many convictions that the Domains a god could have were actually not that far from him, thus the cleric class. If he was indeed a godless cleric, he worked mostly with Death & Knowledge domains. Actually, what he was able to cast doesn’t matter that much, maybe was he a wizard (he lived in a tower, all alone by himself, for all this period), but what is important is the fact that he’s not able to cast anymore. At least, not as he could before.



That’s the second reason why I thought about a cleric. When a cleric stops worshipping his god, he loses his powers, correct? Now imagine that you draw your power from something you believe in, such as Suffering. It fascinates you, you have the conviction that it resolves all the problems you have, to suffer is the answer of existence. You can also apply Death domain in here, the character used a lot of spells listed in the D&D 3.5 corebook from the Death domain at this time. However, he dramatically changed, left all those convictions behind, and thus, he’s unable to cast that anymore, even if he was one of the most powerful spellcaster in the whole universe. He’s haunted tho, he had powers he COULD use again but he would have to make too many sacrifices for it, to dive again in a world of shadows he barely escaped before suicide, he doesn’t want, but he knows it’s there, waiting.



Since all his magical powers were coming from those convictions he had, he wouldn’t be able to cast anything anymore, like the rules say, ‘’ Ex-Clerics: A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct expected by his god (generally acting in ways opposed to the god's alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features and cannot gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones.’’ His ‘’faith’’ or personal beliefs act as his deity in this case, correct?



The main problem I have with that is many ‘’powers’’, let’s call them like that, he still kept from that time. Things such as, he has a 6th sense quite powerful, he’s able to know when he’s going to get attacked most of the time. When he looks at someone, he should be able to see what this person is really, I mean, he’s able to judge correctly someone just by looking at them, he’s not able to read mind at all, but let’s say that he catches the energies that emanate from everyone and that he’s able to interpret them most often correctly. Is that a magic feature, or can you explain it with a high Wisdom stat, or a good Sense Motive skill? He doesn’t see auras or stuff but he feels them, he somehow knows when there’s something magic nearby (magic is quite rare in the world we play in).



Moreover, this is permanent, it’s not a spell he casts at all, and it’s not always working as he would like it to be. Like… something could hide his true nature to him, but it would be hard. Or, he could be distracted by something and he would miss, let’s say, a rogue moving in his back. When he’s alert tho, it would be really hard for him to miss such a threat, but still possible, I guess. Again, is that magic, or simply a Sense Motive DC?



I’m lost, since all the spells in the corebook that are close to the effect I want are either flawless, must be casted, or have a duration. Then I looked into permanency but none of the spell listed in the permanency list are able to provide the effects I want, and even more, you need to be a wizard or a sorcerer to cast Permanency. As I said, he could be, but his personality is far from being what is described as a sorcerer even if his magic skills seem to match it, which is the opposite from the wizard: he never used books to cast, but he could make researches as they did to learn as much as possible on something. And how would you explain that he’s not able to cast anymore?



Finally, I was thinking of a cleric because of the non-magic related stats. He’s not a warrior, but he knows how to fight much more than a wizard would. He would be around level 18 for a cleric, let’s say, and it matches great his fighting abilities. That’s what he does in the current time, he came back to his country from his exile, lost all the casting abilities he had (and he will never cast such things again, even tho it would be, I think, possible by the rules, his code of conduct just doesn’t allow him to do so).



I think it would be nice for him to be able to cast some spells from the Protection domain, but then again, without components or prayers: just like he suddenly feels the energies around him and shape them to form what he wants, by instinct. Spells like Antimagic field, Sanctuary or even Prismatic Sphere. Now how do you explain that he could cast those but nothing else?



I mean, would he be a wizard that ‘’forgot’’ all the spells he knew, that kept his wizard casting level so he could cast level 9 spells but that a curse would prevent him from casting them to much? Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention: he couldn’t cast as much as a ‘’real’’ caster would do, he doesn’t have enough energy anymore to do so. Maybe one spell per spell level and that’s all. And then, to keep on the wizard, maybe did he get some fighter’s level to learn how to fight?



As far as I filled his character sheet… he has a very strong Wisdom stat (wisdom as a STAT, not as an universal value… maybe wouldn’t he consider himself as wise), Int, and Charisma (he became a leader), an average Strength value, a quite low Constitution (consequences from all the sacrifices he made for using dark magic as he did) and probably the worst Dexterity stats of all (it adds a little sense of humor to a tormented character). His Sense Motive skill would be maxed, even tho I’m not sure in what he does is magic abilities or successful Sense Motive checks. He would be ‘’tough’’ in a brawl fight, but mostly because he knows how to fight and that he is able to take some blows (he still has some HP, but he’s sick all the time, he has no cardio and stuff).



As for alignment, I’m not even sure. Maybe something like Lawful Neutral… or that’s what he would like to be. He is a really nice guys who fights for freedom, for people unable to fight for themselves, he’s always ready to help anyone in need, as long as, according to him, they deserve it. He would never help someone evil because it’s against his principles, then again… oh well, maybe would he be good, now. Since he hates the laws and every rules (a little like me concerning the specifics aspect of D&D *coughs coughs*), we could say that he is Chaotic, but then again, he tries ( and does) to follow his code of conduct, he has a strong discipline on himself concerning who he is, his ideal, and stuff. Then can you call it Loyal, even if he hates all the zealots and stuff? Or neutral good because he is in between?



That sounds a bit weird to me, but well, this is why I’m asking. I really hope you guys will be able to help me through, and if you have any questions, if you need more precisions, feel free to ask. Thank you for your time!


-LDX



TL;DR: What class would be an ancient spell caster, unable to cast anymore but a few spells that match his current ideals, and who has some permanent capacities (magic or not, I don’t know how the rules describe them) such as having a 6th sense much more developed than normal or to most of the time be able to correctly know what kind of person is someone by looking at them.

 

[Kobold Boots]

This is a character best put together as a cleric/monk. Put skill levels in Sense Motive. As a DM fiat you should give him know alignment cast at will with no verbal, somatic or material component.

As to power level, just put him at a ridiculously high level as compared to the PCs, especially if he's not intended as a combat for the PCs. Make sure there's some way to kill him instantly when you need it (plot, magic item, etc.)

 

[Herzog]

Ok, some Ideas for you that may help:

Persist spell Feat: allows you to change some spells duration to 24 h.
Several detect spells work in a cone (so people outside the cone, like the rogue sneaking up behind, could be outside of the cone and thus not detected)

High level caster with few High level spells: Persist Spell feat takes up a spellslot 6 levels higher than the original spell, so some high level spell slots may be used to Persist low level spells.
I think the Archmage prestige class from the DMG also has some abilties that 'eat' high level spell slots.

Another option would be to let him have a reduced casting stat (due to illness?) thus disallowing him access to his higher level spells. Note this probably negates the Persist Spell feat option)

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Class-flavor-wise, I kept thinking of an Ur-Priest PrC when reading your description, from Complete Divine. Also his long age made me think of the deathless type (positive energy style lich) from Book of Exalted Deeds and some of the Eberron material.

Perhaps something like an At-Will Detect Evil ability as a level 1 Paladin would account for his sense of people and ability to know when he's in danger. Perhaps find one of the Paladin alignment variants that suits this character, explain that he only took 1 level of Paladin, and neither progressed any further in the class, or ever fully violated his oath and so retained the ability.

Since your focus is more towards Roleplaying than concrete rules, how concrete do you need this to be?

 

[nijineko]

there is also the defiant prestige, and also that one feat that allows clerics of lost/forgotten/dead Powers to still gain spells and powers from their faith and commitment to ideals.

could even make the npc divine rank 0 which would handle the aging issue, and allow them to have some custom salient divine abilities to cover the special abilities.

maybe even divine rank 1, if that is not too much.

 

[LDX]

First of all, thank you for all those answers. I didn't expect to be answered that fast, neither with such detailled stuff. I'm really glad of it, makes me feel to be a part of this communauty I just found.

Then I've been reading alot concerning the issue, and I've got some interesting answers I would like to share with you.

The character wouldn't have any Cleric level. Instead, he would be a level 6,7 or 8 wizard, with a 10 level in the Tainted Scholar prestige class, from Heroes of Horror book. That would explain why, after his changes, he doesn't cast anymore: he could, but it would cost him way too much for what he wants to pay now. He left all the evil behind, but it could still be there if he failed again.

Then, for the martial aptitudes, he would have one or two level in the Paladin class, without being Lawful Good. Maybe a house rule, paladins could have the alignment of their deity/devotion instead of being LG for ever? I say paladin because the way RUMBLETiGER explained it fits quite enough with the concept.

To ''know how people are'' (I'm not so sure if I was clear enoughw when I explained it), simple Sense Motive check. Now someone suggested the Vatic Gaze feat, from PHB2. It seems to work just fine.

Does this sound good?

 

[Dandu]

Levels of Tainted Scholar are always a good thing.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, you know, there are rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide concerning houserules and modifying or customizing material to fit your campaign. You could just take the Cleric class and modify it with a few houserules, swapping out bits and pieces that don't quite fit and replacing them with the NPC's special abilities as needed. Then just name the new, modified class something different like True Believer or Devotee or Mage-Priest or what-have-you, to differentiate it from the standard Cleric class that other characters use.

Perhaps this guy doesn't have the Undead Turning of a Cleric, but instead has an extra Domain? Perhaps he lacks one or two of a Cleric's armor or shield proficiencies as well, depending on whether or not he wears armor and what kind. Perhaps he has one or two fewer spells per day of each spell level relative to a Cleric, but instead gains a special ability or improvement to it at each of the class levels where he would've otherwise gained those extra spell slots? Perhaps he casts spells spontaneously like a Sorcerer, rather than preparing them like Clerics do, but has fewer spells per day or a much smaller spell list than a Cleric's in exchange? Maybe he has some wizard-like ability to research spells when necessary, but at the cost of giving up some other spells or spell slots.

Maybe one of his spell-replacing special abilities lets him gain a temporary Domain (like Death or Protection or Healing)? Maybe in place of a 9th-level spell slot or two, he has a permanent Foresight ability that only operates while he's not distracted or something (functioning otherwise as per the spell). Perhaps in place of a 6th-level spell slot or two, he has a permanent True Seeing ability that has similar limitations or maybe slightly greater limitations (since True Seeing is normally shorter-lasting than Foresight, IIRC)?

Clerics have Sense Motive as a class skill so it's entirely possible that this guy has 15 or 20 ranks in that skill, easily getting a hunch about the motives of anyone he meets by automatically passing any Sense Motive check of DC 20 or 25 as appropriate, or less (assuming he has high Wisdom as you say). Sense Motive wouldn't let him anticipate attacks and evade them or determine what other people are like, it just allows him to get a hunch when someone's being mind-controlled or when someone's lying or being evasive in their answers or whatnot. True Seeing or the Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law spells would determine other things, as would the Discern Lies spell to some extent or the Detect Thoughts spell (though you said he doesn't read minds, so I doubt that one would fit).

To represent the NPC being kind of tough, you might give him the Improved Toughness feat (+1 HP per level, requires something like a +4 Base Attack Bonus, but it's retroactive so it'd give him 18 HP if he's 18th-level; as a cleric or similar he could've taken the feat at 6th-level or some time later). Improved Toughness is from the Complete Warrior book. If not that, he might just have the Combat Expertise feat (or Expertise if you use the original "3.0" 3rd Edition rules) making him harder to hit in close combat when he decides to fight in a more defensive manner.

As for alignment, the NPC sounds like he might be Good-aligned at this point (could've been evil or neutral before; the philosophy you implied indicates he was probably some shade of Evil in the past), and probably Neutral Good overall, but it depends. He would only be Chaotic if he rebelled against laws/rules/order/authority or if he didn't care about "the greater good" or the trappings of society or whatever, generally speaking. If he just doesn't care for laws and rules, but isn't an anarchist/rebel/lone-wolf, he's Neutral on the Law-Chaos axis.

 

[LDX]

Well, you know, there are rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide concerning houserules and modifying or customizing material to fit your campaign. You could just take the Cleric class and modify it with a few houserules, swapping out bits and pieces that don't quite fit and replacing them with the NPC's special abilities as needed. Then just name the new, modified class something different like True Believer or Devotee or Mage-Priest or what-have-you, to differentiate it from the standard Cleric class that other characters use.

Indeed, that could have been done. The main problem I had with that was the reticence of my players, since they all know they know the rules better than me, all they want is to catch me on something and tell me how I was wrong. Obviously, in a game, I make them shut up, but I wouldn’t create myself a situation where they could get over me.

Perhaps this guy doesn't have the Undead Turning of a Cleric, but instead has an extra Domain? Perhaps he lacks one or two of a Cleric's armor or shield proficiencies as well, depending on whether or not he wears armor and what kind. Perhaps he has one or two fewer spells per day of each spell level relative to a Cleric, but instead gains a special ability or improvement to it at each of the class levels where he would've otherwise gained those extra spell slots? Perhaps he casts spells spontaneously like a Sorcerer, rather than preparing them like Clerics do, but has fewer spells per day or a much smaller spell list than a Cleric's in exchange? Maybe he has some wizard-like ability to research spells when necessary, but at the cost of giving up some other spells or spell slots. Maybe one of his spell-replacing special abilities lets him gain a temporary Domain (like Death or Protection or Healing)? Maybe in place of a 9th-level spell slot or two, he has a permanent Foresight ability that only operates while he's not distracted or something (functioning otherwise as per the spell). Perhaps in place of a 6th-level spell slot or two, he has a permanent True Seeing ability that has similar limitations or maybe slightly greater limitations (since True Seeing is normally shorter-lasting than Foresight, IIRC)?

You bring many interesting points here, but why I didn’t work on that much was the problem of him not casting anymore the spells he used to. What you’re saying is quite relevant concerning how he casts, how to explain his special abilities, but I didn’t find out yet what makes him unable to cast at the current time spells he used to. The Tainted Scholar’s taint concept, where yourself is used as an essence, did fit both RP wise and rules wise concerning this. It’s not a final choice, as I said, and in fact I would like a better understanding of what you’re saying, because it seems quite interesting yet not as complete as I would like to. It’s probably because I don’t understand, not because you’re not explaining well. That’s my bad.

Thinking about it, being an old Tainted Scholar doesn’t prevent him to cast spell again, he just has a strong roleplaying (or is it roleplay? How is it spelled in my sentence?) reason not to, which is backed by the rules. If I understood your statements correctly, he could cast with the restriction you suggest but wouldn’t because of pure roleplaying reasons. Sounds good, I like the concept and I’ll think about it. Or maybe didn’t I understand at all? That’s also possible.

Clerics have Sense Motive as a class skill so it's entirely possible that this guy has 15 or 20 ranks in that skill, easily getting a hunch about the motives of anyone he meets by automatically passing any Sense Motive check of DC 20 or 25 as appropriate, or less (assuming he has high Wisdom as you say). Sense Motive wouldn't let him anticipate attacks and evade them or determine what other people are like, it just allows him to get a hunch when someone's being mind-controlled or when someone's lying or being evasive in their answers or whatnot. True Seeing or the Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law spells would determine other things, as would the Discern Lies spell to some extent or the Detect Thoughts spell (though you said he doesn't read minds, so I doubt that one would fit).

I think that was fixed with the feats and the Detect Evil by his Paladin level(s). It’s pretty much identical to what you’re saying, but I like the variants. I also appreciate how you explain a little more how those work, it’s refreshing.

To represent the NPC being kind of tough, you might give him the Improved Toughness feat (+1 HP per level, requires something like a +4 Base Attack Bonus, but it's retroactive so it'd give him 18 HP if he's 18th-level; as a cleric or similar he could've taken the feat at 6th-level or some time later). Improved Toughness is from the Complete Warrior book. If not that, he might just have the Combat Expertise feat (or Expertise if you use the original "3.0" 3rd Edition rules) making him harder to hit in close combat when he decides to fight in a more defensive manner.

That will be done, thank you very much.

As for alignment, the NPC sounds like he might be Good-aligned at this point (could've been evil or neutral before; the philosophy you implied indicates he was probably some shade of Evil in the past), and probably Neutral Good overall, but it depends. He would only be Chaotic if he rebelled against laws/rules/order/authority or if he didn't care about "the greater good" or the trappings of society or whatever, generally speaking. If he just doesn't care for laws and rules, but isn't an anarchist/rebel/lone-wolf, he's Neutral on the Law-Chaos axis.

I was deeply thinking on Neutral Good, but how would you explain the Paladin level(s)? Would you create an other class as you suggested for Cleric?

 

[xigbar]

I've heard about Dragon Magazine's Variant Paladins of different alignments.