D&D 5E What classes do you want added to 5e?

]The Fighter, per it's current blurb, is meant to be the most diverse Class.
Sadly it fails at that. It's nothing new. The 2e fighter got talked up, but the double-specialized archer or TWFer dominated, anything else seemed like a waste of time unless it was salvaged by some powerful magic item. The 3e fighter was supposed to be a natural 'party leader,' but had nothing to back it up - you could do all kinds of wonderful build-to-concept stuff with it, but most just weren't viable alongside CoDzilla. The 4e fighter was locked into a primary & secondary role that precluded it so much as being a good archer, however good it may have been at it's assigned roles.

While each of those fighters was limited, each also did stuff really well. The 5e fighter does DPR really well, that's a terribly appropriate thing for a fighter to be good at, and neatly fills the shoes of the 2e fighter.
Job well done.

For the some of the many (many!) things the 3.x fighter could do (or be a build component of), and the role the 4e fighter covered, and for what the 4e Ranger and Warlord did well, other classes will probably be needed. Well, maybe not the Ranger so much. 3.5 Scout, though.

The Fighter's done a great job of being the 2e Fighter, which was a strong expression of the class, so that's enough for one intentionally-simple Standard Game class.

It is possible to build a character that you might write off as 'suboptimal' but is in fact quite viable. Want to play a leader type of noble birth with military strategy as it's focus: Choose a Noble background, create a Fighter that emphasises Intelligence and Charisma over physical stats, pick up the Leadership Feat initially, and the Healer Feat in due course, along with the Protection fighting style. When you hit 3rd level, choose the Battlemaster option with Commander's Strike, Rally and Maneuvering Attack.
And when will that character shine? When he novas with Action Surge and all his CS dice to do a lot of damage. You can put a little artificial flavor and color on a beatstick, but it's still a beatstick. You can use a beatstick for lots of things that you could use any old stick for, but it's still a beatstick.

OK, I've used up my quota of b-------ks for the thread. I'm going to grab a beat- sharp stick and go dig up another metaphor...

If you argue that this all should be the remit of another new Class, then all you are doing is restricting what a Fighter can be by default.
That was a solid argument against the Thief when it appeared in Greyhawk. Since then, we've had a /lot/ of classes. Not that it's wrong. The game could just be Fighter, Cleric, Magic-User and Backgrounds & Multi-classing & Feats to taste, to kinda-sorta do just about any concept.
But it's not.

It's akin to saying I want a new Class to specialising in picking locks, and inso doing I will be taking an option away from the Rogue Class.
In contrast to the 5e fighter's ability at anything other than it's DPR core competency, the 5e Rogue can be really good at picking locks.
 
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Not to offend or insult but...

I hear the phrase "I can't see any new classes for D&D. The current one do pretty much everything." in some form or another in D&D forums a lot.

And I wonder how creative or imaginative the fanbase is. Is it:

"No other classes fit in D&D"
"No other classes fits in my image of D&D"
"I can make almost any other class using what we have."
or
"I just can't think of any other classes."

The first two are a bit narrow minded with a bit if selfishness in the second IF the person isn't willing to support others at least via encouragement or constructive criticism.

And although some classes of the past are shallow or redundant in mechanics or flavor concept in the past, it would need little much more than reimagining of the class. That's what they did for sorcerer, ranger, paladin, and warlock. D&D has a few classes like that. They have something unique and only new the other part.
I'm picky with new classes because I think classes are big tentpole options. They're huge. They have to be something that influences your character from level 1 all the way to level 20.

As classes can be played from level 1 to 20 they also require an eff tonne of playtesting. It's very easy for classes to break things since they affect every round of every combat for an entire campaign. Because of the time requirements alone, new classes should be rare as you can only test so many classes at a time.

Classes should also be a marriage between mechanics and story. You can have a story based feat or a mechanic based feat and those work, because they're small. But a class needs to be more than a neat mechanic or a fun story hook. It needs to have both.
It's super easy to think of new mechanics. That's not an issue. But a class needs to be more than a veneer of story and lore over a cool mechanic.
Similarly, a character concept is not a class. Classes should not depend or assume a particular backstory or origin: that's character fluff not class fluff. I was super hard on the warden for this during 4e, as part of it's "fluff" was someone being raised by bears, which is a super fun character concept but a terrible class concept. A bear cub human could easily be a ranger or barbarian or druid. It's not distinct to a class. (And it doesn't work in a world without bears.)
Classes also need to have some variety. A one-trick-pony makes for a poor class. I've said this for Pathfinder, as a class needs to be big enough to encompass the one concept and archetypes. Similarly, a class for 5e needs to have lots of mechanical and narrative room for subclasses.

D&D books should also have some level of genericity. Almost everything published should fit into the Forgotten Realms and Eberron without issue, as those settings are meant to be kitchen sinks. If they don't fit easily, the content might need work. Similarly, new content should be stuff that can easily be added to a homebrew world without work. For that reason, new subclasses are always going to be more desirable as they just augment classes that have a role, a place in the world.
Brand new content that is funky and doesn't easily fit in a world is much harder. Like Magic of Incarnum or shardminds. They're neat ideas but really require some lore buy in and are hard to incorporate into a fantasy world in play, or a campaign setting that might have been the setting for games since 2e. Anything that big is something that just doesn't work as something that just hasn't been encountered before, as it's dramatic enough that it should have impacted history in some way.

Because of the work required to design a class and make it balanced, new classes shouldn't appeal to a small fraction of the community. Because then the work was wasted. The more content you release, then the more those wasted classes really stand out.
Let's say there are two-dozen classes and one class is odd and only half of all groups allow it. If all classes are equally popular, and groups have an average of 4 players, then one in six groups will have that odd class. So 15% of 50% or roughly 7.5% of all tables. And that's assuming all classes see equal play, and no one doubles up. Making a new niche class is a lot of work for something 93% of gamers might never see in action.


Even obscure as those are, some got treatments. The swashbuckler and Beguiler got PPs and dragon articles, PPs made a small attempts at incarnate, healer, themes or backgrounds could suggest swashbuckler, healer, archivist, and there was a wilder theme, duskblade was just another 3.x stab at a gish, and 4e also had plenty of those, any arcane striker could probably claim 'warmage' (it was another mechanics-differentiated class)...
... I wouldn't expect any of those to have been satisfying, but given more than 2 years (ie no Essentials re-boot), I'm sure they could have been tackled better eventually. And, of course Pathfinder was there within a year to continue those classes and add ever more, as well.
So, even though there's no expectation of 5e ever being as option-rich as 3.5, it's still no comparison, really.
Some of those were from the Player's Handbook 2, so they should be no less "obscure" than the avenger, invoker, shaman, or warden.
Given late-4e was willing to do stuff like the runepriest and seeker rather than update 3e content, it seems highly likely they would never have updated those 3e classes. Just like they opted to make something completely new with the swordmage rather than go to the bladesinger, duskblade, or eldritch knight for inspiration.
After all, 2e was arguably the longest lasting of all editions, and it didn't really bother adapting the classes from 1e (or just did them as kits).

As I said earlier, every designer wants to make something new and leave their mark on D&D. Everyone wants to make the next great iconic thing like the warlock or Far Realm or chuul that moves from edition to edition.

Within 10 months, 4e had every class that had appeared in a prior PH1, plus a few from more obscure sources, plus some completely new ones.

We're over a year into 5e and it hasn't even covered everything that's been in past PH1s.
Excluding the assassin, which was in the 1e PHB but took well over a year to appear in 4e Dragon, and even then only as a playtest.
Really, 5e is pretty good, with the assassin and warlord being covered as subclasses. And it has everything in a single book rather than delaying some classic content for the better part of a year.

4e, like 3.5e, was also super heavy into the splatbooks. So it seems like an unfair comparison. That's not where the focus is.
Within 13 months of launch, 5e has three complete campaigns running from levels 1-15. No edition had anywhere close to that. It took 3e two years to go from Sunless Citadel to Bastion of Broken Souls, and a year and change for 4e to move adventurers from the Keep on the Shadowfell to fighting the Prince of Undeath.

If we got creative enough (and were charitable enough about meeting concepts with very tenuous modeling and depending on lots of generous DM rulings), we could probably build any concept with MC'ing and a Fighter, Cleric, & Magic-user class. (Even the Rogue would just be a light-fighter with a background and a lot of skills.)

It'd take that level of squinting and settling to do a lot of concepts with the current classes. 5e devotes a lot of sub-classes (~30 out of 38) to doing this or that caster-concept (some of them little more than meta-game concepts) just so. It could do with more classes and sub-classes to handle other sorts of concepts.
Subclasses are the big thing.
Builds in 4e were rather small and more of a theoretical design, since you could take powers designed for the build or choose other powers entirely. There was less design space as the build effectively came down to a single small class feature: there was less room to make something brand new.
In 5e you don't *need* a new class to same extent as you did in 4e or even 3e, since some class flexibility is baked in. So alternate concepts can more easily become a subclass, or even a variant class (like the spell-less ranger). So a spirit shaman can become a druid build, a shapechanger can be a barbarian or ranger, a soul knife can be a monk, and so on.
 

Just like they opted to make something completely new with the swordmage rather than go to the bladesinger, duskblade, or eldritch knight for inspiration.
Bladesinger and EK both showed up post-Essentials, too. And, really, 3.5 tried so many iterations of 'gish' and other MC-like PrCs....

It sounds like the issue is partially the order, too. Maybe a little bit of "if I shout down what the other guy wants, there'll be 'room' for what I want," too. No sense of abundance.

Really, 5e is pretty good, with the assassin and warlord being covered as subclasses. And it has everything in a single book rather than delaying some classic content for the better part of a year.
Except it doesn't have everything, not even everything from a prior PH1. And it has been more than a year.

4e, like 3.5e, was also super heavy into the splatbooks. So it seems like an unfair comparison.
It is in one sense: I wouldn't expect 5e to add 'missing' content as fast as 4e did, because of the slower pace of publication.
OTOH, waiting even 10 months for something /then/ seemed sufficient justification for a lot of nerdrage. While having waited even longer for something, now, doesn't even seem to be accepted as justification for a polite request.

5e has some class flexibility is baked in. So alternate concepts can more easily become a subclass, or even a variant class (like the spell-less ranger).
Sure, but it has limits. The biggest limit is hat sub-classes haven't yet swapped out class abilities, just added to them. It's also not consistent about how much 'design space' is open for the sub-class vs locked in by the main class.
 
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Except it doesn't have everything, not even everything from a prior PH1. And it has been more than a year.

Except it does. You just don't like it.

You are very fond of the "[They reneg'd on their promise,] everything from a PH1 isn't there" trumpet. Despite the fact it wasn't a 'promise.' It was a stated design goal. And, the goal was to get everything from a 1st PHB to be/get in the PHB, not "get its own full class." It's something they wanted to try to do. Something they were shooting for, not a 'promise.'

As far as I [and many others] can tell, they have come very close to, if not completely, achieved that goal.

The Illusionist is there...as a subclass and with various other avenues to achieve. The Assassin is there...as a subclass and with various other avenues to achieve. The Warlord is there, under a less inflammatory name,...as a subclass and with various other avenues to achieve.

The fact is not "They didn't give us a warlord/they didn't do what was in all the PH1's." The fact is the pro-warlord crowd just doesn't like what it is/how it was done. It's not "enough."
 

Bladesinger and EK both showed up post-Essentials, too. And, really, 3.5 tried so many iterations of 'gish' and other MC-like PrCs.....
I remember that bladesinger popping up in Neverwinter. Not sure about the EK. Where was that?

it doesn't have everything, not even everything from a prior PH1. And it has been more than a year..
If you count subclasses then it has everything. There's an adequate warlord and assassin. It's pretty darn comprehensive.

It is in one sense: I wouldn't expect 5e to add 'missing' content as fast as 4e did, because of the slower pace of publication.
OTOH, waiting even 10 months for something /then/ seemed sufficient justification for a lot of nerdrage. While having waited even longer for something, now, doesn't even seem to be accepted as justification for a polite request..
Maybe.
How long did monk fans wait in 4e again?
 

I'm picky with new classes because I think classes are big tentpole options. They're huge. They have to be something that influences your character from level 1 all the way to level 20.

As classes can be played from level 1 to 20 they also require an eff tonne of playtesting. It's very easy for classes to break things since they affect every round of every combat for an entire campaign. Because of the time requirements alone, new classes should be rare as you can only test so many classes at a time.

Classes should also be a marriage between mechanics and story. You can have a story based feat or a mechanic based feat and those work, because they're small. But a class needs to be more than a neat mechanic or a fun story hook. It needs to have both.
It's super easy to think of new mechanics. That's not an issue. But a class needs to be more than a veneer of story and lore over a cool mechanic.
Similarly, a character concept is not a class. Classes should not depend or assume a particular backstory or origin: that's character fluff not class fluff. I was super hard on the warden for this during 4e, as part of it's "fluff" was someone being raised by bears, which is a super fun character concept but a terrible class concept. A bear cub human could easily be a ranger or barbarian or druid. It's not distinct to a class. (And it doesn't work in a world without bears.)
Classes also need to have some variety. A one-trick-pony makes for a poor class. I've said this for Pathfinder, as a class needs to be big enough to encompass the one concept and archetypes. Similarly, a class for 5e needs to have lots of mechanical and narrative room for subclasses.


I agree completely. A class needs unique stories and mechanics. Or a history so strong that it can't be ignored (ranger, druid). It also needs internal variety.

D&D books should also have some level of genericity. Almost everything published should fit into the Forgotten Realms and Eberron without issue, as those settings are meant to be kitchen sinks. If they don't fit easily, the content might need work. Similarly, new content should be stuff that can easily be added to a homebrew world without work. For that reason, new subclasses are always going to be more desirable as they just augment classes that have a role, a place in the world.
Brand new content that is funky and doesn't easily fit in a world is much harder. Like Magic of Incarnum or shardminds. They're neat ideas but really require some lore buy in and are hard to incorporate into a fantasy world in play, or a campaign setting that might have been the setting for games since 2e. Anything that big is something that just doesn't work as something that just hasn't been encountered before, as it's dramatic enough that it should have impacted history in some way.

Indeed, the new class for d&D must be generic enough to not stretch the worlds and settings that aren't extremely restrictive too much.

Because of the work required to design a class and make it balanced, new classes shouldn't appeal to a small fraction of the community. Because then the work was wasted. The more content you release, then the more those wasted classes really stand out.
Let's say there are two-dozen classes and one class is odd and only half of all groups allow it. If all classes are equally popular, and groups have an average of 4 players, then one in six groups will have that odd class. So 15% of 50% or roughly 7.5% of all tables. And that's assuming all classes see equal play, and no one doubles up. Making a new niche class is a lot of work for something 93% of gamers might never see in action.

!00% agree. Barely popular classes go to back of the line.

Seems like the poster child for the next new class after psion is

THE TRUENAMER. Like the star player who is always injured.

Unique Stories? Check
Unique Mechanics? Check (The flaw with truenaming was with 3rd mechanics for skills and CRs. 5e has proficiency. Fixes most of that)
Unique Concepts? Check
Unique Subclass? Check
Doesn't stretch the core settings? Check. D&D has truenames as core flavor. They just don't do anything until DM fiat.
Fan Favorite? Many 3e fans loved the idea of the truenamer. The mechanics just didn't work in the edition it debuted and 4e died before it got through much of the backlog.
 

Artificer.
That is all.

There's narrative room for lots. A dedicated shapeshifter class, a shaman, a witch, etc. But most of those aren't D&D. They'd be cool in a campaign setting built around them, but they don't *need* to exist. That's the kind of content that'd be better in a 3PP.

I agree with you about the artificer (Eberron certainly needs it).

I also agree that there are few classes that are "needed" in the established campaign settings (although I think a witch class would probably be a benefit to the Ravenloft setting).

However, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that certain things "aren't D&D." From my earliest moments with the game, it has always told DMs to make the game their own. What D&D "is" is something that is inherently going to vary from table to table as it's affected by the influences and sensibilities of each group.

That disagreement aside, I have no problem buying material that helps me to run what D&D is to me coming from a third party. That is, if WotC can ever manage to complete and implement the license.
 

To be honest I'm fine with what they have. I think they have touched all the core D&D classes, granted if you are a 4e fan you may not agree. Artificer and such classes are really setting book additions, I'd hate to see too much Eberron leak into "vanilla" D&D.

While I agree that Eberron is probably the only setting that needs the artificer, I feel compelled to point out that Eberron can only leak into "vanilla" D&D if one lets it. No matter how much non-vanilla material is published, the DM doesn't have to allow any of it if she doesn't want to.
 

All you people who want more classes - here is the answer to your dreams - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, more classes than I care to count.

Unless those classes are compatible with D&D, that doesn't solve the problem; that's just telling people who want more classes to play something else. At best, the suggestion to play something else is non-constructive.
 

However, I vehemently disagree with your assertion that certain things "aren't D&D." From my earliest moments with the game, it has always told DMs to make the game their own. What D&D "is" is something that is inherently going to vary from table to table as it's affected by the influences and sensibilities of each group.
Some things are D&D, some things aren't, and some things vary.

D&D certainly has a core tone. If you got all players to describe the "tone" of what they thought D&D was and made an aggregate of that, the result would BE D&D in the purest sense.

Like drawing the world from memory.
94610ebd2.jpg
It may not be 100% accurate, but it hits all the major beats and is recognizable if you squint.

However, there are also things that just do not *fit* D&D or require a little extra work. They *might* fit and a lot of times you can work them into a new campaign. It might fit individual campaigns just fine and dandy, but it won't work with the baseline, the average of all tables.
 

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