What classes will be in the martial power book?

[TwinBahamut]

Previously in this conversation, I asserted that I doubted a martial character would be unable to do even basic controller like things with much regularity. Specifically, he would have trouble 1) hindering 2) multiple 3) foes at range. The response I got was that 1) disarming or tripping is hindering, 2) he could affect everyone he moved past, and 3) moving really fast is kind of like affecting targets at range. All technically true statements.

I thought that you got responses like 1) Fear effects, tripping, trampling, stunning, knocking down, etc were hindering effects 2) It is easy for a Martial character to attack multiple targets 3) range is not significant for all controllers, just as range is not significant for all strikers. Considering that you didn't even reply to a lot of my points from the last post, you are making it look like you are trying to pretend that a lot of ideas for martial controllers in this thread do not exist. You are arguing against a single idea for a Martial Controller that you came up with yourself, not against anyone else's ideas.

But, while I don't know what the power level will be like in 4e, I highly suspect that a character who can blitz through a battlefield and disarm or trip everyone he runs past is going to be, by definition, a high level character.

Why? Seriously, I don't see your logic here. It is much akin to saying "it is logical that wizards will only be able to target single enemies at first, and will only learn how to use wide-area AoE spells at high level, thus Wizards can't be good Controllers". If a class is designed to disarm foes, it will be able to do so at any level, not just high levels, since that is the very point of the class. Of course, the lightning-disarmer is not something I have actually seen put forward as a Martial Controller, so I will again refer you to my previous paragraph. You simply are not arguing against anything that has actually been put forward in this thread.

Similarly, characters who fire storms of arrows? I could be wrong, and that could be the sort of thing a low level character does, but I really, really doubt it. Some of these abilities are cool, and I wouldn't mind them being in the game- but a controller needs to control right out of the box at level 1. He can't afford to wait until level 17 to get Tornado Throw from Book of Nine Swords.

Well, I won't defend the storm of arrows thing any further than I already have above. It is not my idea, so I won't bother. I never really understood the Controller Archer concept myself.

I'll bet you an imaginary cookie that the PHB already has an ability in it for fighters where the fighter hits some dude so hard the dude falls backwards a space or two. Its not that much of an extrapolation from there for the fighter to hit several dudes. And if you think that "it just isn't smart for the [Fighter] to ever do such a thing," I think you're flat out wrong. There's dozens of situations where the best defender behavior would be to force his enemies away from him. If the defender is defending a passage, for example, he could use this to advance down the hall, forcing his foes backwards. If he were fighting on a bridge, he could push people off the bridge. There's lots of reasons a defender might want to shove someone somewhere. And roles aren't straightjackets, and one (probably higher level) power choice is hardly going to cripple a new player's ability to fulfill his combat role. I think you sell new players short.

I wouldn't take that bet. I am certain myself that a Fighter may have one or two powers that let him knock back a foe, since it does have a purpose as you pointed out. However, there is pretty large leap from knocking back a single foe to knocking back every foe. Even ignoring the fact that it is a nonsensical power, which is really hurting my ability to deal with it logically (Are you trying to push foes back or keep them where they are so you get weapon damage? It combines opposing ideas and forces, and I won't presume to understand the Will Defense usage), it simply overrides any ability the Fighter may have in place that lets him protect allies. Everyone around the Fighter is attacked, and knocked back, even towards allies. A Fighter (or rather, his allied Controllers and Strikers) should be using knockback to limit the number of foes attacking anyone but the Fighter, not work to keep the Defender safe, like your power does.

Argh, I don't want to debate that ridiculous power any more. I want to talk about Martial Controllers themselves. However, since you don't seem inclined to actually discuss the ideas I have put forward, and keep trying to redefine what I am arguing for rather than actually respond to my ideas, I don't imagine that this discussion is going to go anywhere.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

Another thing to point out is that a martial controller doesn't need to be as proficient at controlling as a wizard. They would almost certainly have a higher ammount of hitpoints and a higher survivability as a trade off for not being maximized controllers. It'd be good for a party without a defender, for sure.

 

[Imp]

The controller's mission, as presented in Race & Classes, is to deal damage (not Striker-level damgae, but damage) to lots of enemies at once. The typical controller, the Wizard, does this, I'm guessing, with spells like Fireball and Magic Missile and various other multi-target spells, probably mostly at range (though things like Burning Hands or various self-centered burst effects may be more close-range).

I haven't seen anything yet that suggests the controllers, to fill that role in the party, need to do anything other than this, or anything more than this. They are anti-minion machines, anti-army devices, they control the battlefield by making it, in general, a bad idea to form a close group of people that they can easily blast out with a single spell.

I am agreeing with KM a lot lately. I haven't really heard of 4e Wizards doing a lot more than plink people at range. Their plethora of save-or-suck options seem pretty well deprecated from their 3e counterparts, and thus, the "controller" role – I can't bring myself to refer to these roles outside of scare quotes – opens up to other plausible options, martial missile-spammers, machine-gun archers, grenadiers among them.

 

[Klaus]

A martial controller design would probably be informed by stuff like:

 

[Steely Dan]

A martial controller design would probably be informed by stuff like:

That looks like a striker to me.


I've said this before, as they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid (and forced symmetry, period), and as much as it would appeal to my sphincter puckering nature, we may never see a martial controller.

 

[Klaus]

That looks like a striker to me.


I've said this before, as they are not obsessing about filling out the power source/role grid (and forced symmetry, period), and as much as it would appeal to my sphincter puckering nature, we may never see a martial controller.

As the spell Earthbolt is writeen, yes, it's damage to a single opponent. But imagine a line of soldiers suffering the same effect (and afterwards, the path of the Earthbolt becomes difficult terrain).

 

[Aristotle]

I know that there will be some fantastic elements to martial characters, particularly at higher levels when they are expected to be doing legendary deeds... but I'm hoping the fantastic nature of those deeds isn't as obvious as striking the ground and causing an explosion at the feet of your target.

That seems like the Ki power source to me (god, did I just say that... I was against the idea of Ki as a source).

 

[Klaus]

I know that there will be some fantastic elements to martial characters, particularly at higher levels when they are expected to be doing legendary deeds... but I'm hoping the fantastic nature of those deeds isn't as obvious as striking the ground and causing an explosion at the feet of your target.

That seems like the Ki power source to me (god, did I just say that... I was against the idea of Ki as a source).

I don't think Ki will be a power source per se. Races & Classes pegged the monk as a Martial striker, for the time being.

The very notion of the line "your kung fu is not strong enough" reflects the Martial power source: enlightenment comes from the ability to kick ass.

 

[D.Shaffer]

That is not the controller's mission.

As far as I know, the only source for what a controller actually does, other than rampant speculation, is Races & Classes. The controller's mission, as presented in Race & Classes, is to deal damage (not Striker-level damgae, but damage) to lots of enemies at once. I haven't seen anything yet that suggests the controllers, to fill that role in the party, need to do anything other than this, or anything more than this.

Everything else is icing.

Snipped everything but the meat of it. To respond, you have to look at some of the other things they've said. Races and Classes was just a quick summary looking mostly as the classic wizard. From the news page...

On Fighters

Powers can be divided into assault, defense and control. Assault is best suited to two-handed weapons, and ephasize offense and damage. Defense is about higher AC and such things. Control hinder and constrain the enemy.

On Warlocks

There's a section on how the warlock is a striker, despite being able to do controller-like things. "a controller can affect not only multiple opponents on the battlefield, but the battlefield itself. Fogs and walls? Controller. Reshaping the terrain? Controller. " Whereas the warlock, a striker, "can push opponents around the battlefield as an occasional effect, but she's still "built" to do striker damage".

So any concept that can deal damge to several creatures at once is a valid Controller concept, as far as we know, be it through fireballs, through arrows, through throwing axes (and goblins), through tricks with chain weapons, through a quick movement and multiple attacks....any of these fill the role of the controller.

Doing damage to lots of foes at once? Part of being a controller, but not the only part. Depending on who's comments you look at, it's not even the most important part of it.

Again, it needs to be remembered that no class is completely pure. Every class will likely have a few controlish abilities, but the Controller needs to be BUILT around control, done so in a way that doesnt steal the 'gimmick' of another power sources controllers, and done so in a way that meshes with other classes with the same power source.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Snipped everything but the meat of it. To respond, you have to look at some of the other things they've said. Races and Classes was just a quick summary looking mostly as the classic wizard. From the news page...

Cool. So we have "damages lots of enemies and manipulates how they move."

That's STILL within the range of a chain-wielder or a flurry-of-blows type character. The chain-wielder trips and whips and spins. The flurrier does likewise.

Again, it needs to be remembered that no class is completely pure. Every class will likely have a few controlish abilities, but the Controller needs to be BUILT around control, done so in a way that doesnt steal the 'gimmick' of another power sources controllers, and done so in a way that meshes with other classes with the same power source.

In order to fill a role, a class just needs to meet certain minimum requirements that are really quite broad. Any class that can damage lots of enemies and manipulate their movement is a controller. If a flurrier and a chain-wielder can do that, they're a controller, regardless of whether they use melee weapons or have a good movement speed.

It's not about being pure, it's about making sure the base is covered, and everything else is icing.