What constitutes Grind? What causes it?

[fba827]

When I DM, I find that there are a few variables involved.

1) Level appropriateness. When I run an at-level appropriate encounter, the combats generally last about 30-45 minutes. When I start taking it above level, it can go anywhere from an hour to two depending on how much higher than level it is. [of course, if the party is going to only have one/two combats before resting again, then i don't feel bad about upping the level since they'll have all their resources and having at level encounters at constantly full resources is frankly just as boring from the nonchallenge, to me.]

2) Some consideration with party composition: When filling out the non 'boss' ranks of enemies, I at least give some minor consideration for party composition (i.e. when the party is light on strikers, I won't make all the grunts be soldiers unless it just fits the flavor of the boss, but if i'm trying to decide between adding another solider or skirmisher and it won't affect the flavor of the encounter, then i'd go with skirmisher in that instance)

3) Player style (part 1: tactical mind): some of the players just take a long time because they enjoy the tactical considerations and options. There is nothing wrong with that, but on the flip side it does add to the overall length of each round leading to other impatient players feeling a little bored and bemoaning the length of the encounter.

4) Player style (part 2: the unfocused): some players just take a long time because their mind wanders when it's not their turn (they're reading, on the phone, etc) and thus everything needs to be re-explained every time their turn comes around.

5) Build choices: Some classes/feats/builds just have more complex powers and features than others. Between conditions/zones/auras/fiddly bits, some players simply have a lot more to keep track of and take in to consideration than others.

6) PC synergy: are the PCs even working together, tactic wise. For instance, lack of focused fire does keep enemies around longer which in turn makes longer rounds since it is that many more enemies that need to go every single round rather than attrition over time. Or, along similar lines, are people providing bonuses to allow themselves or others to hit better or harder to end it sooner..

7) Number of players/PCs - on days when everyone is there, the combats take disproportionately longer (it's not a one person adds X minutes sort of thing, it seems to be some sort of exponential increase).


Of course, different groups will have different experiences, but any time a combat takes long when I DM, I can pinpoint the reason down to one or two of the above ...

Can something be done about all those issues all the time? Probably not (at least not without veering towards some sort of strict table rules) but you can often steer away from whatever one or two those are the biggest issues at your table.


Edit: Long story short, this got cross posted to two threads due to a technical issue where I thought i lost the post, tried to retype it but typed it back in a similar thread that i thought was the same original, only to find that i didn't lose my original post, thus, it ended up being posted twice..anyway, sorry about that.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Higher level combats are also slower combats. More enemies and higher level enemies slow things down. One way to make a more challenging, more interesting yet faster fight is to use well rounded groups. Put a mix of enemies, well balanced with melee, ranged, and mobility. Use Soldiers and Controllers sparingly and deliberately, and don't overload on them(avoid 3 Soldier fights).

Due to life being a great deal more inconvenient then I would like, I have not had the opportunity to run much high level combat (ie: paragon or epic tier). The one time I tried was very cumbersome, but I blame most of that on the game being a 1 off with 2 players running 2 newly created high level characters each that they knew nothing about, and needing to sift thorugh the list of encounter, daily, and utility and class powers they were not at all familiar with.

I would imagine that the presence and effect of grind is more or less stable (ie: running a level 1 party against a level 5 solo is not much more grindy then a level 11 party against a level 15 solo). For any DM's who have reached those levels 'organically', do the higher levels feel any more or less grindy then lower levels (allowing for some slowdown due to PC's selecting from a somewhat larger set of powers)?

END COMMUNICATION

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Due to life being a great deal more inconvenient then I would like, I have not had the opportunity to run much high level combat (ie: paragon or epic tier). The one time I tried was very cumbersome, but I blame most of that on the game being a 1 off with 2 players running 2 newly created high level characters each that they knew nothing about, and needing to sift thorugh the list of encounter, daily, and utility and class powers they were not at all familiar with.

I would imagine that the presence and effect of grind is more or less stable (ie: running a level 1 party against a level 5 solo is not much more grindy then a level 11 party against a level 15 solo). For any DM's who have reached those levels 'organically', do the higher levels feel any more or less grindy then lower levels (allowing for some slowdown due to PC's selecting from a somewhat larger set of powers)?

END COMMUNICATION

I wasn't really clear here. I was more talking along the lines of higher level enemies compared to the PCs. Actually, the fastest game I've ever seen in 4E was running Demon Queen's Enclave with paragon tier characters.