D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Charlaquin]

Which is kind of odd to bring up in D&D because Continual Light existed in previous editions.

It was, but it was part of character progression. Part of the core gameplay loop of D&D is gaining levels and acquiring new abilities that make challenges you used to struggle with no longer an issue, which then allows you to reach areas you couldn’t before, which contain new challenges (which you will likewise eventually gain new abilities that allow you to overcome them, etc.)

 

[Cadence]

But as I went over a bit upthread, light management isn’t really about visibility. It’s a proxy for time management.

For me, that feels kind of like it depends on which VTT I have figured out. If it's one that lets each character set how they see/what light source they have and uses fog of war and the like... then it feels like it is visibility.

Since I haven't figured one out, it doesn't mean that yet of course

 

[James Gasik]

It was, but it was part of character progression. Part of the core gameplay loop of D&D is gaining levels and acquiring new abilities that make challenges you used to struggle with no longer an issue, which then allows you to reach areas you couldn’t before, which contain new challenges (which you will likewise eventually gain new abilities that allow you to overcome them, etc.)

So basically, the Metroid gameplay loop. Run into an obstacle you can't deal with, get an ability that can, go back later.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Mostly, I think light management acts as a proxy for time management. If you have to rely on torches to see, and they only last so long, and you can only carry so many of them, then there is always a source of time pressure, even when there aren’t wandering monsters to worry about. And I do think time management is a very important element of dungeon crawling. Time pressure gives weight to every action, and creates meaningful tradeoffs between expediency and caution; things that aren’t as relevant in the context of a game like Zelda where you’re much more constrained in how you can interact with the world and deal with challenges. Link doesn’t have the option to pick a lock or break down a door in a dungeon, so the player doesn’t have to weigh the costs and benefits of taking the time to find a key, or making noise battering the door, or breaking one of a limited number of picks. Zelda also has the benefit of being played in real time. Players usually don’t go around checking every wall for hidden bombable spots because doing so takes time and would get boring, but in D&D everything happens at the speed of narration. Unless time is a limited resource, there’s no reason not to scour every inch of every dungeon for secrets and traps. Light management is an easy way to create a reason not to do that.

but even with the current widespread darkvision and ease of unlimited light granting cantrips do players nowadays search every inch of a dungeon for hidden doorways and such? time pressures can be imposed by things other than counting torches for light and i personally don't think they're really the most interesting way to do it.
Edit: i'd rather be challenged by puzzles, the monsters themselves or narrative time pressure rather than because i didn't buy enough torches

 

[Cadence]

No, that's actually not true at all. Gen Y was a completely separate generation that NOW makes up the first half of Millennials, while the second half of the Millennial generation is what was called Millennials back when product marketing people still cared about Gen Y.

It is 100% true that generations are arbitrary and vaguely defined. It is also true that by most definitions, Gen Y is another name for Milennials. It may also be true that there are some definitions by which Gen Y is a separate generation between Gen X and millennials, and these definitions may have once been more common than they are now. These categories are socially constructed, and are subject to drift over time. There’s no central authority governing what the definitions of generations are, so one certainly could consider Gen Y a distinct generation, and one wouldn’t be wrong. But it wouldn’t be consistent with the current most commonly used definitions.

My brain was muddled on this, so I went back and checked the references on wikipedia (for what that's worth). It has some of the history of the naming for Gen Y and Millenial (that y'all might not need, but I sure did !) :

Millennials - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tetrasodium]

but even with the current widespread darkvision and ease of unlimited light granting cantrips do players nowadays search every inch of a dungeon for hidden doorways and such? time pressures can be imposed by things other than counting torches for light and i personally don't think they're really the most interesting way to do it.

No because there's nothing to gain from it. They don't need the treasure it might turn up. They don't need magic items. They don't really need to be concerned about traps because anything dangerous enough to matter is going to make the GM look adversarial. Even if they do have or want magic items PCs don't go through the old magic item churn that would incentivize them to find stuff. Even if the GM does try to make those things important though it's not rewarding because of all those reasons & the fact that it will probably break the game's math if they do.

 

[Horwath]

Except, you know, the goblins should be using light too.

if you are sentry, then you hide in darkness.

but the thing with goblins also needing light is true for theirs everyday work also beats any light source management that was mentioned in this thread as it can be looted and restocked after every fight.

 

[Charlaquin]

For me, that feels kind of like it depends on which VTT I have figured out. If it's one that lets each character set how they see/what light source they have and uses fog of war and the like... then it feels like it is visibility.

Since I haven't figured one out, it doesn't mean that yet of course

But whether you’ve figured a VTT out or not (or even use one), light can still work as a timer.

 

[Desdichado]

Yes and no. Categories being arbitrary doesn’t make them useless per se (otherwise all categories would be useless), but generations specifically are pretty much useless as labels.

Which is mitigated by the fact that everyone continues to use them suggesting that they are, in fact, pretty useful to a lot of people.

Getting a bit conspiratorial there, don’t you think?

Just observational. I'm not proposing anything by the observation except that it DID in fact happen like that. Everyone was talking about Gen Y in the marketing world until almost overnight, they weren't and they almost seemed to pretend like they'd never heard of Gen Y.

Oh, undoubtedly! I obviously can’t speak for Questing Beast, but I’m quite sure from conversations with people who did play the game in the 70s and 80s that my own games look quite different than theirs did. Reproducing the Classic gameplay style isn’t really my goal. I think there’s a lot of valuable things that can be learned from Classic play, and I think a lot of Classic procedures make for really engaging gameplay loops. But ultimately, I’m more interested in refining my own playstyle, mining both Classic and more modern play for ideas that can improve my games.

This, to me, is the really interesting question. But I think it's even more interesting than that, because I suspect that even the people who DO have the context of having done D&D in the 80s don't do it the same way that they used to, even if they think to themselves that they do. There's no way that they haven't accrued all kinds of other things from all of the years and all of the products and all of the experiences that they've had since.

Personally, I'm not really an OSR guy; like I said somewhere up thread, I'm old fashioned but not old school. I've embraced the fact that different experiences, different games, different styles, have all had an impact on what I think is ideal in the years since I started playing. But I think even the OSRians of my generation who maybe think that they're playing something very similar to what they did thirty some odd years ago are really doing things considerably different, maybe subconsciously even, just based on how much their gaming context has changed over time.

 

[Charlaquin]

So basically, the Metroid gameplay loop. Run into an obstacle you can't deal with, get an ability that can, go back later.

Precisely. Only since you can attempt any action you can imagine in D&D, most of the gating mechanisms you see in metroidvania games like special doors you need the correct upgrade to open don’t really work. A clever player can usually find a way around the obstacle. And to a certain extent that’s fine - good, even! But to truly get that gate-and-key gameplay in D&D you need more abstract gates. Can’t get to the 5th level of the dungeon because you can’t carry enough torches to get there and still have light; come back when you’re 5th level and can cast continual flame. Can’t get to the Pyramid of Doom because you can’t carry enough water to get you through the Deadly Desert; come back when you can cast Create or Destroy Water. Etc.