D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Bill Zebub]

Think of all the inns run by retired adventurers, charging like 2cp for ale. There was no way those places were solvent with all the offered amenities. Obviously they had a hoard somewhere in the cellar with all their treasure and they were just draining it slowly to give new adventurers a place to rest up and heal.

Did you hear about the rancher tavern owner who won the lottery? A reporter asked him what he was going to do with all that money. He said, “Well, I suppose I’ll just keep on ranching hosting murder hobos until the money’s gone.”

 

[James Gasik]

There's no reason they couldn't still have provided those older options for players who wanted them.

Yes, they certainly could have, unless they did and it was edited for page count or something?

 

[Starfox]

This discussion seems to be less about dungeoneering and more about general grittiness. Not all of us want that, I would be sad if this became the standard mode of the game.

There are rules in the DMG for changing what a long and short rest is that can be used. A series of similar optional rules could be added to achieve the same goal. But DnD in all its editions is a pretty heroic game by level 3 or so. in 1E, many campaigns never reached 3rd level, and that I think is the reason 1E games were considered gritty. But in the end, perhaps DnD is not the best game for this kind of campaign. A game with less return from experience, such as Rune Quest, might be more suitable.

One thing I do agree with is that darkvision is an issue. For me it is much an aesthetic issue, and an issue of racial balance for rogues. Halflings and humans, the most iconic rogues, lack darkvision. My solution is to negate darkvision's ability to see in the dark. Dim light functions as bright light, and that is the entire effect. This makes orcs, goblins and such dependent on light, which I feel is much more aesthetically pleasing and true to genre. But yes, it is also something that disrupts dungeon crawling and basically bans races who lack darkvision from such campaigns.

 

[Starfox]

Bringing back uses for gold would be one of those things that helped. And not as a way to make items. Trainibg costs. Upkeep. Building and maintaining an HQ. Buying yourself lands and title. Etc.

These are not uses for gold. They are penalties for lacking gold. Gold is not a reward in this case, it is a necessity, and if the DM fails to provide it the game stalls. Which is also the case in all Gold as Xp systems where you can spend money to increase character power. It looks like a reward, but if you don't get it your power curve sags. This is really, really tricky. You want the PCs to covet gold but to do so you got to give the players incentive to get gold for their characters.

Seriously, I think Conan does this best. Gold is a mcguffin that motivates PCs, but between adventures it is all spent carousing. You play with open cards, telling the players that gold is something their characters want but that it is useless to them as players.

Of course, there are many motivations besides gold in RPGs and I prefer motivations such as personal goals, loyalty, advance in an organization and such, but for dungeon crawling gold is indeed quite a central concept.

 

[Reynard]

These are not uses for gold. They are penalties for lacking gold. Gold is not a reward in this case, it is a necessity, and if the DM fails to provide it the game stalls. Which is also the case in all Gold as Xp systems where you can spend money to increase character power. It looks like a reward, but if you don't get it your power curve sags. This is really, really tricky. You want the PCs to covet gold but to do so you got to give the players incentive to get gold for their characters.

Seriously, I think Conan does this best. Gold is a mcguffin that motivates PCs, but between adventures it is all spent carousing. You play with open cards, telling the players that gold is something their characters want but that it is useless to them as players.

Of course, there are many motivations besides gold in RPGs and I prefer motivations such as personal goals, loyalty, advance in an organization and such, but for dungeon crawling gold is indeed quite a central concept.

I don't understand this perspective. If gold is the thing that drives the game, players will seek it out and GMs wouldn't have any apparent motivation to withhold it.

 

[Starfox]

I don't understand this perspective. If gold is the thing that drives the game, players will seek it out and GMs wouldn't have any apparent motivation to withhold it.

It limits the kinds of campaigns the rules can run. If you want to play a peasant rebellion game where money is a fantasy and feeding the multitudes a constant issue is a problem, you can't if the game requires players to spend inordinate amounts of money just to up their own skills. Likwise, if you play a game of noble intruige, if a baron can sell off 10% of their assets to give themselves ungodly magic items, that does not work either.

 

[Reynard]

It limits the kinds of campaigns the rules can run. If you want to play a peasant rebellion game where money is a fantasy and feeding the multitudes a constant issue is a problem, you can't if the game requires players to spend inordinate amounts of money just to up their own skills. Likwise, if you play a game of noble intruige, if a baron can sell off 10% of their assets to give themselves ungodly magic items, that does not work either.

The discussion is specifically about rules that will cultivate old school dungeon delving as a playstyle.

 

[Bill Zebub]

These are not uses for gold. They are penalties for lacking gold. Gold is not a reward in this case, it is a necessity, and if the DM fails to provide it the game stalls. Which is also the case in all Gold as Xp systems where you can spend money to increase character power. It looks like a reward, but if you don't get it your power curve sags. This is really, really tricky. You want the PCs to covet gold but to do so you got to give the players incentive to get gold for their characters.

Seriously, I think Conan does this best. Gold is a mcguffin that motivates PCs, but between adventures it is all spent carousing. You play with open cards, telling the players that gold is something their characters want but that it is useless to them as players.

Of course, there are many motivations besides gold in RPGs and I prefer motivations such as personal goals, loyalty, advance in an organization and such, but for dungeon crawling gold is indeed quite a central concept.

Wandering off-topic (or maybe not) but I really wish there were several different variants instead of just Darkvision:

1. Can see clearly if there's any source of natural light...sunlight, moonlight, starlight...however dim (e.g. elves).
2. Radii from light sources are doubled (fairly common among underground races)
3. Heightened smell/hearing (advantage on rolls) when in darkness
4. Can actually see in pitch blackness (very rare)

Some creatures/ancestries might have more than one of these features. E.g. orcs/goblins might have #2 and #3.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

This discussion seems to be less about dungeoneering and more about general grittiness. Not all of us want that, I would be sad if this became the standard mode of the game.

There are rules in the DMG for changing what a long and short rest is that can be used. A series of similar optional rules could be added to achieve the same goal. But DnD in all its editions is a pretty heroic game by level 3 or so. in 1E, many campaigns never reached 3rd level, and that I think is the reason 1E games were considered gritty. But in the end, perhaps DnD is not the best game for this kind of campaign. A game with less return from experience, such as Rune Quest, might be more suitable.

One thing I do agree with is that darkvision is an issue. For me it is much an aesthetic issue, and an issue of racial balance for rogues. Halflings and humans, the most iconic rogues, lack darkvision. My solution is to negate darkvision's ability to see in the dark. Dim light functions as bright light, and that is the entire effect. This makes orcs, goblins and such dependent on light, which I feel is much more aesthetically pleasing and true to genre. But yes, it is also something that disrupts dungeon crawling and basically bans races who lack darkvision from such campaigns.

Because a lot of people mean a gritty game rule tending toward Free Kriegspiel when they talk about dungeons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It limits the kinds of campaigns the rules can run. If you want to play a peasant rebellion game where money is a fantasy and feeding the multitudes a constant issue is a problem, you can't if the game requires players to spend inordinate amounts of money just to up their own skills. Likwise, if you play a game of noble intruige, if a baron can sell off 10% of their assets to give themselves ungodly magic items, that does not work either.

You provide alternatives as needed. That's what the DMG is for.