D&D (2024) What could One D&D do to bring the game back to the dungeon?

[Greg Benage]

How does having a +1 dagger mean that you don't need torches?

It might be an exaggeration, since the radius of illumination is only 10 feet for a dagger, and the torches are likely to be useful for other things. But it's clear that the "dungeon survival" aspects of the game go away at a fairly low level. The magic-user has access to continual light at 3rd level, if the party isn't already festooned with magical light sources. You can "world-build" to change that, but the TSR module authors didn't and no one I played with back in the day did either.

The OSR brought those low-level dungeon survival elements back to the forefront, but even then, the "Old School Primer" contemplates the changing dynamic explicitly: "In lower level adventures, food and light sources can be the key to success or failure of an expedition (remember, 0e is about the little guy)" but "higher level adventures shouldn't be about declining food and light sources, they should be about declining hit points and spells."

 

[James Gasik]

It might be an exaggeration, since the radius of illumination is only 10 feet for a dagger, and the torches are likely to be useful for other things. But it's clear that the "dungeon survival" aspects of the game go away at a fairly low level. The magic-user has access to continual light at 3rd level, if the party isn't already festooned with magical light sources. You can "world-build" to change that, but the TSR module authors didn't and no one I played with back in the day did either.

The OSR brought those low-level dungeon survival elements back to the forefront, but even then, the "Old School Primer" contemplates the changing dynamic explicitly: "In lower level adventures, food and light sources can be the key to success or failure of an expedition (remember, 0e is about the little guy)" but "higher level adventures shouldn't be about declining food and light sources, they should be about declining hit points and spells."

No I saw "sheds light" and didn't bother to check the PHB, so I assumed "as the spell", but that's a 3e-ism.

Now how about tying a +1 dagger to the end of a 10' pole? LOL.

 

[Clint_L]

As far as I am aware, every single adventure published by WotC includes significant dungeon content. How much more "back to the dungeon" can the game go?

That said, having recently played through White Plume Mountain again, I am always up for another really good dungeon adventure, so I guess my answer to the OP would be "publish more good stuff like that." I don't think tinkering with the rules in order to enforce a particular play style is the answer.

Edit: thinking more about what made White Plume Mountain fun, but also something I wouldn't do too often, a lot of it comes down to the lack of story. It's almost entirely tactical, so that meant that as a DM it was kind of like taking a break. I got to role-play some fun monsters, but a lot of the time I was just sitting there being entertained by the players' wacky attempts to solve traps and puzzles. Did I really have to worry too much about what the vampire was doing here and the Efreeti there? Nah. Now, I don't want to do a whole campaign like that - I like long-form storytelling. But a good dungeon crawl certainly has its moments!

 

[Greg Benage]

Now how about tying a +1 dagger to the end of a 10' pole? LOL.

My arcane trickster had a coin on a string that he would cast light on when he used his cloak of the bat so as to be in dim rather than bright light.

 

[Malmuria]

5e characters just have more tools on their character sheet to obviate the kind of challenges that face PCs in classic-era editions. The light cantrip gives perpetual hands-free light for 40', and can be cast on objects (a coin thrown down a pit, for example (or carried by an invisible flying warlock familiar)), and does not require a spell slot. That plus darkvision means that the characters have a lot of resources to address mundane issues. Same with finding enough to eat, or resting to recover hp and abilities. Which is fine...it means the game moves from heroic to superheroic, and does so quicker and starting at first level. But if you wanted to add in more mundane survival based elements you'll have to start making house rules.

 

[Greg Benage]

Which is fine...it means the game moves from heroic to superheroic, and does so quicker and starting at first level.

I agree with this. The dungeon survival elements start to fade around 3rd level in AD&D, but they're mostly absent from the jump in 5e.

 

[Malmuria]

I agree with this. The dungeon survival elements start to fade around 3rd level in AD&D, but they're mostly absent from the jump in 5e.

I think levels 4-7 is when you can start adding in wilderness/hex-crawl survival elements

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The magic-user has access to continual light at 3rd level, if the party isn't already festooned with magical light sources. You can "world-build" to change that, but the TSR module authors didn't and no one I played with back in the day did either.

Yeah seriously. You can't even stop them by not putting it in a spellbook if there's a generic Cleric or Speciality Priest with Sun sphere in the party. We realized how good it was after playing 2E for like, I dunno, 3 months and from then on every PC had multiple Continual Light objects about their person (often in thick cloth so they could be hidden).

TSR's 2E Forgotten Realms worldbuilders actually leaned into it - loads of FR cities were lit by Continual Light and "glowglobes" were everywhere (not the same as driftglobes, note).

 

[Greg Benage]

I think levels 4-7 is when you can start adding in wilderness/hex-crawl survival elements

I guess, but even then, it seems like characters have sufficient resources just on the spell lists that the "survival" elements are rather undermined, at least compared to the dungeon survival elements in low-level classic D&D. You can always trade spell slot(s) for food and water, for example, which I suppose is the point of the Old-School Primer quote.

 

[Malmuria]

I guess, but even then, it seems like characters have sufficient resources just on the spell lists that the "survival" elements are rather undermined, at least compared to the dungeon survival elements in low-level classic D&D. You can always trade spell slot(s) for food and water, for example, which I suppose is the point of the Old-School Primer quote.

I think the idea is that you wouldn't just be eating for one, but have to manage a whole caravan: mules, horses, hirelings, etc. But even without that, levels 1-4 probably last longer in classic dnd, both because of slower leveling and character death (and level drain, maybe). I would agree, however, that most dnd-style games do the dungeon-crawling playstyle best at low levels, to the point that some newer games do away with levels all together.