What did you never like in 3e?

[thecasualoblivion]

Count me in as someone who never had a problem with wizards or clerics. I can understand that they could potentially be problematic in theory, but in my experience, they're only an issue when the player is a douche and is capable of running rings around the DM.

I have seen this problem, and I have been this problem. In my defense, I wasn't a douche about it and am enough of a charismatic player that I dominated the game while managing to have everybody like me. I also haven't met a DM who can match me strategically or tactically without abandoning the rules altogether, and even then they're usually still outmatched. The last 3E game I was involved in featured a DM runing a high powered game houseruled into oblivion that I destroyed by playing a rules as written Druid. The DM actually was surprised when I started dropping standard Druid things like Augmented Summoning Crocodiles on the game.

 

[Allister]

Count me in as someone who never had a problem with wizards or clerics. I can understand that they could potentially be problematic in theory, but in my experience, they're only an issue when the player is a douche and is capable of running rings around the DM.

Ah, but that's the sticking point.

Is it being a douche if you use the "obvious" rules. I'm not talking about abusing the rules like say "bag of rats".

I'm talking about using the core spells to create a menagerie and then use animal buffing spells to make them even better?

 

[Thasmodious]

The caster divide is not just in manipulating potential broken spells like polymorph, but in just the huge range of options and utility available to the casters. A group of 4 wizards or 4 druids makes a better "core 4" than the actual core 4 (wizard, fighter, rogue, cleric). Point is, the casters were more capable at fulfilling the roles of other classes like the fighter and thief than the class itself was. This is a bit of theorycraft, of course, as groups rarely did that. But I did play in such a group in an OLG, a band of wizards. Point remains that it was hardly uncommon for a wizard or druid in a normal group to outshine other characters in their chosen roles.

 

[Remathilis]

Actually Thas, I have a (sorta) working version of your theory.

Old 2e game. The PCs.

3 elf mages
2 human fighter
1 elf thief (me!)

Guess how long it took the non-wizards to become irrelevant?

If you said 9th level, congratulations. At 9th level, the thief was an heirloom PC; There was little I could do better than the mages except trapfinding. In combat, I never hit. In scouting, the wizards did a better job with invisibility. Monsters died quickly under a barrage of three casters, making the fighter's job pretty much "keep monsters distracted 1 round". Oh, and they had good access to travel, trickery, and divination magic.

Sure, we role-played. But I didn't need numbers for that. When dice came out though, the dominance of the casters shown supreme.

(IIRC, this was Gary's experiences as well with Bigby, Tenser, and the mages of yore. The difference was the henchmen weren't run by other players. )

 

[Lanefan]

... 'Cause right now, you're the proverbial dude in the glass hose with a brick in his hand.

Dude in the glass hose...now that's an image I just didn't need.

Lanefan

 

[diaglo]

Dude in the glass hose...now that's an image I just didn't need.

Lanefan

our hose, in the middle of our street
our hose, in the middle of our

our hose, in the middle of our street
our hose, in the middle of our

our hose it has a crowd
There's always something happening
And it's usually quite loud
Our mum she's so hose-proud
Nothing ever slows her down
And a mess is not allowed...

 

[ExploderWizard]

The beginning of that boardgame feel. Square occupation FTL.

Spells began to have effects that were inconsistent with thier title.
Disintegrate does damage?

Darkness= shadowy illumination? "Quick cast darkness I need to see this map"

Prestige class overload

Magic items, not so magical anymore.

20th level commoners.

Feats & skill points. These were interesting at first but became a problem of too many fiddly bits involved in character creation for a class based game.

Thats the major stuff for me.

 

[Andor]

I'm curious why you took away my favorite two issues? Too obvious?

I was looking less for big design issues, than quirks.

Druids getting strong animal companions while Rangers get balloon animals? Quirk. Math? Not a quirk.

 

[Dedekind]

A group of 4 wizards or 4 druids makes a better "core 4" than the actual core 4 (wizard, fighter, rogue, cleric).
...
Point remains that it was hardly uncommon for a wizard or druid in a normal group to outshine other characters in their chosen roles.

4 clerics can also break the game. But we had fun doing it!!*


*In fact, from a purely combat PoV, this was the most fun I had as a player in 3E. Unlike 4 mages, 4 clerics are also viable from levels 1-8.