D&D 3E/3.5 What do 3ed books tell us about 4thed?

[Greg K]

It shows that ENWorld isn't representative of the D&D player base. It's very DM heavy and those DMs are more likely to be world builders and/or tinkerers than most. That's why 'depth' monster books and Unearthed Arcana are popular.

Or maybe people here are more familiar with third party products and consider the material in many such products vastly superior to similar offerings from WOTC (which is exactly why I dislike most of WOTC's non-core books which are not Unearthed Arcana or non indepth monster books).

 

[Sitara]

BO9S may not be popular here, but its one of the most popular supps for 3e, as is complete mage. PHBII is rite on the spot on the poll though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Oh, and did I mention that Book of Nine Swords didn't make the top 30, or probably even 40?

Well, I don't know about the voting mechanisms, but it seems to me like a huge number of people haven't actually read the Bo9S or seen it in play, but loathe it in theory and make up exciting lies about it which they then spread. Whereas more liked books are probably being voted for positively by people who haven't even read them, but have heard good things about them, or like the concept.

To be strictly honest, I think 95% of the hate on the Bo9S is to do with the fluff (which is kind of reasonable - a lot of it's rather lame/annoying stuff), mechanically, it's very hard to fault it.

 

[Greg K]

To be strictly honest, I think 95% of the hate on the Bo9S is to do with the fluff (which is kind of reasonable - a lot of it's rather lame/annoying stuff), mechanically, it's very hard to fault it.

There might be people voting negatively based on word of mouth. However, I have read it on multiple occassions and still don't care for the mechanics. I prefer Mearl's Book of Iron Might. I think how much one likes the mechanics depends on the degree of preference for gamism or simulationism.

 

[TerraDave]

Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords

There where 4 initial polls for WotC products. B9S was in the first one: core rules. This was the poll that got the most votes. Here was the results, ranked by votes

Unearthed Arcana I LIKED 275| 0.714285714| 0.8899676
Spell Compendium I LIKED 241| 0.625974026| 0.8607143
Draconomicon I LIKED 231| 0.6 |0.8461538
Magic Item Compendium I LIKED 214| 0.555844156| 0.8136882
Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead I LIKED 212| 0.550649351| 0.8412698
Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations I LIKED 211| 0.548051948| 0.8577236
Manual of the Planes I LIKED 190| 0.493506494| 0.7630522
Fiend Folio I LIKED 187| 0.485714286| 0.7957447
Expanded Psionics Handbook I LIKED 186| 0.483116883| 0.7294118
Monster Manual II I LIKED 186| 0.483116883| 0.7018868
Dungeon Master’s Guide II I LIKED 179| 0.464935065| 0.7246964
Monster Manual III I LIKED 178| 0.462337662| 0.7385892
Book of Vile Darkness I LIKED 174| 0.451948052| 0.6744186
Oriental Adventures I LIKED 170| 0.441558442| 0.7142857
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords I LIKED 146| 0.3792207790| .5959184

Book of Exalted Deeds I LIKED 120| 0.311688312| 0.48583
Arms and Equipment Guide I LIKED 117| 0.303896104| 0.5223214
Monster Manual V I LIKED 115| 0.298701299| 0.6216216
Rules Compendium I LIKED 104| 0.27012987| 0.6419753
Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, and Truename Magic I LIKED 103| 0.267532468| 0.4951923
Monster Manual IV I LIKED 94| 0.244155844| 0.47
Deities and Demigods I LIKED 89| 0.231168831| 0.3787234
Miniatures Handbook I LIKED 85| 0.220779221| 0.410628
Epic Level Handbook I LIKED 76| 0.197402597| 0.2867925
Dragon Magic I LIKED 73| 0.18961039| 0.4424242
Weapons of Legacy I LIKED 60| 0.155844156| 0.2803738
(out of order) Magic of Incarnum I LIKED 54| 0.14025974| 0.2903226
Elder Evils I LIKED 43| 0.111688312| 0.4387755
Exemplars of Evil I LIKED 28| 0.072727273| 0.2745098
Enemies and Allies I LIKED 25| 0.064935065| 0.1602564

The first percent is of total voters that liked. The second is the percentage that liked that had an opinion. Which meant that 40% voted they did not like B9S.

What stands out is that it is solidly in the middle. This is also true when you compare its %s to the other polls. Like I said, about 40 products got higher %s, either in terms of overall voters, or those % of those that expressed an opinion on the product.

And when I look at the winners, I am not surprised. Eberon was mentioned above. Do you really think B9S has had the same kind of impact Eberon has? Or PHB II? Or the Warlock from Complete Arcane. Do you think it has seen the kind of use that the Spell Compendium has? And it definately doesn't get the "love" that some like Draconominicon has. I think the polls are on to something.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

One thing that was clear to me was that power creep sells. 4E could hold the line on this, but I fear that they will repeat the 2.5, 3E, and 3.5 "Splatbook Power Creep --> System Collapse --> Reboot" cycle. Maybe I will be wrong.

It is not power creep that sells so much as ways to customize specific aspects of your character. 3rd edition had feats, and all editions had spells. This resulted in the most popular products being those that had new feats and new spells.

The more choices you have for customization, the harder it becomes to be sure that all options are balanced relative to one another. As you add new selectable abilities, you end up creating the risk of new combinations, especially as most products are only tested in concert with the core rules, as opposed to other new rule supplements.

What 4th edition will do to mitigate this, I suspect, is have better guidelines for designers on what things should be feats and what things should be class abilities. This should reduce the problem of a reasonably balanced character suddenly becoming unbalanced just because someone bought a book with a new feat in it.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[TerraDave]

Power Creep:

After 2ned, and 3rded, do you think they have learned anything on this?

They do mention "leaving space" for things to add. And the new "everyone has powers" approach may make things more modular, and easier to add options that are not obvious power ups.

In any case, we will be getting this stuff right out of the gate. I mean, there is going to be a players guide to the forgotten realms. If they where going to start powering up, that would be the place to do it...

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Power Creep:

After 2ned, and 3rded, do you think they have learned anything on this?

They've learned that they can sell splatbooks, collapse the system under the weight of power creep, and issue a new edition. I mean this seriously (if somewhat bitterly); I don't like the business model, but I can see that it works.

 

[Khairn]

They've learned that they can sell splatbooks, collapse the system under the weight of power creep, and issue a new edition. I mean this seriously (if somewhat bitterly); I don't like the business model, but I can see that it works.

I completely agree.

If anything, the success of 3E seems a clear indication that power creep sells books and lays the groundwork for future editions. I wish this wasn't the case, but to pretend that 4E will in any way limit future power creep would seem naive to me.

 

[TerraDave]

I completely agree.

If anything, the success of 3E seems...

Lets not just pick on 3ed. "Faction books" has been the model for a lot of RPGs for a long time. It certainly was for 2ned, and people who have worked on 2ned have admitted that it led to power creep (see the 30 year aniversary book).

And just to play devil's advocate a little...

I don't think the biggest add ons to 3rd where overpowered. Warlock? Psionics (though that was still a little wonky)? And some powering up was justified: e.g. stuff for mid and high level fighters. Of course, with all the stuff released, some options turned out to be overpowered or unbalanced. But I think there was probably a lot more that we underpowered and not that interesting. And did not see much play. Of course, that is not a good thing either.