What Do You Do For: GUNPOWDER

[Celebrim]

What was, historically, the advantage of guns (atleast muskets) over crossbows? Were they easier to use? Easier to learn how to use? Cheaper to manifacture? More lethal or pentrating? Longer ranged?

Somewhat easier to use - A crossbow with comparable penetration power required alot of silly things and alot of muscle power to it.
Easier to learn how to use - The projectile moved faster, so it was less balistic in nature.
More intimidating - Don't underestimate the effect of something thunderously belching smoke and fire.
Somewhat more penetrating - Only somewhat. Early musketballs could be stopped by a breastplate, but they invalidated alot of other armor.
More difficult to defend against - A crossbow bolt moves at about 200 mph. Believe it or not, that gives you a little bit of reaction time to move a shield up a few inches, shift you head to the side, or whatever if you see it coming. A musketball moving at four or five times that is pretty much instanteous.

 

[Shades of Green]

After reading this thread as well as the 3.0E PHB description of firearms, I've decided to use the following house-rules for firearms:

1) All firearms are Simple weapons; Wizards, Rogues and Commoners (but not Druids!) are proficient with them as well despite the fact that they are not proficiet with all simple weapons.

2) Most personal firearms IMC are flintlocks. Loading takes 5 rounds, or 2 rounds if you take the Rapid Reload feat for that firearm. You can preload a firearm, and even carry two or more loaded pistols in your belt.

3) Each pistol or musket shot needs both a bullet and some gunpowder. A case of 15 pistol bullets costs 2gp and weights 1 kg (2 lb); a case of 10 musket bullets costs 3gp and weights 1 kg (2 lb); a keg of powder sufficient for 250 shots weights 10kg (20 lb) and costs 50gp; a horn of powder sufficient for 30 shots weights 1kg (2 lb) and costs 10gp. 15 silver pistol bullets cost 5gp; 10 silver musket bullets cost 6gp.

4) A singe-barreled pistol is a Small weapon, costs 75gp, weights 2 kg (4 lb), does 2d4 damage, has crit 19-20/x3, has a range increment of 50ft (circa 16m), and is a piercing weapon. A double-barreled pistol is a Small weapon, costs 250gp, weights 3 kg (6 lb), does 2d4 damage, has crit 19-20/x3, has a range increment of 50ft (circa 16m), and is a piercing weapon; it could be triggered twice per load (each barrel is triggered seperately); firing two barrels at once causes 3d4 damage. A singe-barreled musket is a Large weapon, costs 150gp, weights 6 kg (12 lb), does 2d6 damage, has crit 19-20/x3, has a range increment of 150ft (circa 50m), and is a piercing weapon. A double-barreled musket is a Large weapon, costs 400gp, weights 8 kg (16 lb), does 2d6 damage, has crit 19-20/x3, has a range increment of 150ft (circa 50m), and is a piercing weapon; it could be triggered twice per load (each barrel is triggered seperately); firing two barrels at once causes 3d6 damage.

5) A typical bomb (a grenadelike weapon) is an oval metal shell filled with powder and equipped with a fuse; lighting it is a move-equivalent action (the standard action in this round should be used to throw the bomb, as it'll explode immidiately after the character's actions in this round). When thrown, it deals 2d6 damage to anything within a 20ft (circa 7m) radious from the point of impact (a DC20 Reflex save halves this damage). A bomb costs 18gp and weights 1 kg (2 lb).

6) A character with an Alchemy skill can produce gunpowder. Each Achemy check made for this purpose is made at a DC of 10, and is treated as a Craft check for the purpose of costs and times. A natural roll of 1 means that the powder has accidentally ignited, ruining all of the raw materials, and causing 1d8 of fire damage to the character.

7) A character with the Craft (Gunsmithing) skill can build guns and produce bullets. The DC to build a single-barreled pistol or musket is 12; the DC to build a double-barreled pistol or musket is 20; the DC to produce bullets (10 at a time) is 10.

8) A character with the Craft (Explosives) skill can produce a typical bomb; DC 15. A natural roll of 1 means that the bomb has prematurey detonated, ruining all of the raw materials, and causing 2d6 of fire damage to the character.

9) Gunpowder doesn't work when it is wet; even highly-humid air can spoil the powder (can it be used when it dries?). Special alchemical gunpowder which could be used even when wet (but not underwater - it still needs oxygen in order to ignite) costs 200gp for a barrel or 40gp for a horn; making it requires an Alchemy check with a DC of 25, with the same risk of premature ignition as regular gunpowder.

10) A bayonet (a simple weapon) costs 10gp and weights a kg (2 lb). When attached to a musket, it allows the musket to function as a longspear in melee combat. When detahed, it functions as a dagger.

 

[Celebrim]

Shades of Green: Most of that sounds very reasonable and well thought out indeed.

A couple of thoughts.

1) Damage: My personal feeling is that it is too high, and that really the damage should only be an increment above equivalent crossbow damage. So like 1d8 for a pistol, 2d6 for a rifle, and 2d4 for a primitive 1 lb grenade. On the other hand, I feel that the critical range for a firearm should be 19-20/x3 - which reflects the fact that sometimes a hit from a firearm is just extraordinarily lethal no matter who you are.
2) Range Increments: Every time anyone mentions this, I make an effort to convince them that the range increments in the PH are about twice as long as they should be. Hitting a target at range is much harder than the PH rules suggest, and as written range increments rarely if ever come into play. However, also as written they (and the rules regarding spot and listen and range) are broken in the hands of a player that intends to abuse the rules. Please consider halfing the range increments you suggest and while you are at it cutting in half all the range increments in the PH.
On the other hand, the maximum radius of effect of a grenade should be about 20', with those creatures more than 10' away taking no damage on a successful saving throw.
3) Blunderbuss: It is a myth that the flared end of the barrel causes the shot in a blunderbuss to spread. Look it up. I know the temptation to have an area of effect weapon is great, but except in fiction it doesn't work that way. The spread of any shotgun like weapon at 30 yards or so is no more than about 3'. My suggestion is to simply give the Blunderbuss are very short range increment (say 10'), but give it an inherent +3 bonus to accuracy. If you must make it an 'area of effect weapon', make it a grenade like weapon which may 'hit' a nearby 5'x5' square if it misses and which causes splash damage (reflex save to avoid) around the location of where it does hit.

 

[el-remmen]

I call it smokepowder (which I think is a Faerunism, but oh well. .. )

Smokepowder is a volatile alchemical substance invented by gnomes, used to fire their Boom-sticks and Can-Ons. The procedure and ingredients for making this subtance is closely guarded, and it is so dangerous to work with that few seek to learn its secrets. However, anyone with any skill at alchemy would be able to discover at least some of its key ingredients, like saltpeter, sulfur and the pulped wood of a willow tree.

A half-ounce of the powder is called a shot and is the amount needed to fire a Gnomish Boom-stick. Five to six times this amount is needed to fire a Gnomish Can-On.

Smokepowder is typically stored in sealed lead jars of two to three pounds of the powder, and costs upwards of 10 silver pieces an ounce. When being used, it is usually stored in small tapered leather pouches allowing for easy pouring into the weapon's pan.

Most places where smokepowder is available have strict laws governing it sale, storage and transport. Assuming the proper ingredients and tools, making 10 ounces of smoke powder requires a DC 30 Craft (alchemistry) check and costs upwards of 60 sps per batch to make, and can take as little time as one day of work to create. However, rolling a natural one on your craft check results in a mishap. Roll 1d3:

1. Explosion! Take 2d6 hit points of damage and make Reflex save (DC 12) or catch fire.
2. Poison! Inhaled. Fort save (DC 18). Intitial Damage: 1 Con | Secondary Damage: 3d6 Con
3. Blind! Fort Save (DC 15). If successful, blinded for 1d10 minutes. Otherwise, permanent.

 

[Shades of Green]

Changes made to my above post to reflect Celebrim's suggestions; range increments would be cahnged only if ALL range increments in the game would be. Also, added silver bullets and bayonets.

By the way, how much damage would an exploding keg o'powder do and what would be its burst radius?

 

[Celebrim]

By the way, how much damage would an exploding keg o'powder do and what would be its burst radius?

The burst radius of a 50lb keg of gunpowder would be relatively large but the damage would be relatively low. Gunpowder, particularly the stuff used in firearms of the period, is a slow burning explosive. The most dangerous region would be the nearby 'shrapnel zone', were confined objects near the keg (particularly the keg) would be blown away and still have a relatively high velocity. So say 4d6 lethal damage within 20', save (DC 15) halves. Beyond that out to say 60', there would be a region of blast which would be disruptive but not particularly lethal unless you got unlucky and got hit by something, say 2d6 damage, save (DC 13 at 20'-40', DC 11 beyond 40') renders half the damage non-lethal.

 

[Aramax]

Guns in my world are fairly common and accutate,there is no gunpowder.The gun is fired w/chrysallen made from dragon poop thus reletivly expensuive(10 gold a shot)

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I use the Iron Kingdoms rules for gunpowder, with some modifications for ease of use. I've also adapted some of the gun rules from Spirosblaak, which has quite a bit of good stuff, as well (including cannon, which the IK rules lack). I don't find it to be an unbalancing addition.

 

[Arkhandus]

From my Rhunaria webpage (based on what I researched on old firearms)......
Humans, dwarves, hobgoblins, kobolds, and goblins may start with crude black-powder weapons, but they are very rare and expensive. Flint-Lock Pistols are small (NOTE: I use 3.0 rules; in 3.5 this would be 'light medium' or 'one-handed small') ranged weapons of the projectile type, with a cost of 350 gp, 2d6 damage, 20 threat range, x3 critical multiplier, 50-foot range increment, weight of 3 pounds, and damage type of piercing. They require two hands to reload, which takes a move-equivalent action, or a full-round action for nonproficient characters.

Flint-Lock Muskets are similar, but are medium-sized (again, 3.0 rules; in 3.5 it'd be 'one-handed medium' or 'two-handed small'), have a cost of 600 gp, do 2d8 damage, have a 150-foot range increment, and weigh 10 pounds. They also require two hands to reload, which takes two move-equivalent actions to reload, or two full-round actions for nonproficient characters.

Neither firearm can be loaded any faster than normal, not even with the Rapid Reload feat, as it is simply impossible to load the crude devices any faster than proficiency in them already allows. However, two firearms may be fired simultaneously if held in different hands, in the same manner as two crossbows of equal size, if the wielder is of sufficient size. Neither firearm's damage is modified by Strength. The threat range of firearms cannot be increased by any means. Crude flint-lock firearms are barely accurate enough to aim at a specific target, let alone trying to hit a specific spot.

There are no such things as masterwork firearms or masterwork bullets for firearms. Any firearm or firearm bullet may be enhanced with magic, however, as though it were masterwork. Firearm enhancements stack with those of the ammunition, as with a crossbow. Firearm bullets come in bags of 10, which includes miniature powder packs for the bullets, and each bag of 10 bullets costs 5 gp and weighs 2 pounds. These are not the same as sling bullets. Both types of firearm hold only a single bullet at a time.

There is a 5% chance that a firearm will not fire, discovered only when next the character attempts to fire, and in such an event the character must spend another move-equivalent action to remove the jammed powder pack and bullet, thus unloading it, and then they may attempt to load the weapon again normally (which still carries the same chance of not working, and the same bullet/powder pack may be used if the weapon failed to fire). Nonproficient characters require twice as much time to unjam and unload a firearm, and regardless, any firearm loaded by a nonproficient character suffers a 20% chance of not firing, in place of the 5% chance suffered when loaded by a proficient character. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) grants proficiency in both Flint-Lock Pistols and Flint-Lock Muskets. Flintlock firearms can be fired from a prone position at no penalty, like crossbows.


Besides firearms, the aforementioned races also have access to black-powder explosives. A Black-Powder Bomb costs 200 gold pieces (NOTE: I probably need to make it cheaper for practicality), deals 3d4 fire damage within a 5-foot blast radius (allowing all creatures in the blast a DC 20 Reflex save for half damage), has a range increment of 10 feet, and weighs 1 pound. It is a grenade-like weapon, so does not require proficiency to use, but requires a ranged touch attack, and can be thrown up to five range increments.

A Black-Powder Bomb must be lit with a flame before throwing, which takes a standard action. Black-Powder Bombs have a fuse which can be of any length, and this determines how soon they explode after being lit. The fuse cord may be cut shorter, when desired. Regardless, the Bomb explodes after a certain number of rounds have passed, at the end of the appropriate turn of whomever lit the Bomb. Thus, if a fuse is long enough for 4 rounds, the Bomb explodes at the end of the fuse-lighter's 4th turn, counting only the turns after lighting the Bomb.

Any character who has readied an action to defend against the Black-Powder Bomb's user may use their readied action to kick the Bomb away immediately, before it can explode. This may also be done as an attack with a standard action or full-attack action, on any character's turn in which the Bomb is not already in the midst of being held, thrown, or kicked. Regardless, this counts as an attack, and the kicker chooses a target within 20 feet, applying the usual range increment rules for the Black-Powder Bomb. The kicker must succeed at a ranged touch attack to reach the target, otherwise the Bomb ends up in a random spot within 10 feet of the target, in a random direction from the target.

Any character within reach of the Bomb may instead pick it up as a move-equivalent action which provokes attacks of opportunity from any opponents who threaten them. However, this move-equivalent action may not be taken with a readied action if the Bomb is set to explode at the end of the current character's turn (not the readied' character's turn). A Black-Powder Bomb explodes if destroyed while lit, but if destroyed while unlit, the Bomb just scatters its explosive powder all over the 5-foot space it was in. That powder will explode if any of it is exposed to flames (even a candle) or great heat.

 

[Mallus]

In other words, regardless of the tech level you introduce, the players are going to try to invent howitzers, anti-personel mines, machine guns, etc.

Is this any different from a player wanting to 'improve on' the existing spells and magic items in absurd ways?

Stuff like: 'My character already knows fireball, so he's going to spend some time deconstructing the spell and create a version that causes a mere 20 degree temperature increase inside the skulls of its targets. Seeing as this spell applies less heat to a smaller volume, it should be a level lower.'

Why is technology fundamentally different from magic? (especially when you consider the D&D rule set rather explicitly treats magic as technology). Wouldn't a player who wants to 'game the system' simply finding other systems to game if banned gunpowder/higher technology? Say like the magic system?

A really smart player is going to be hard to thwart in this without creating a huge argument.

A really smart DM would simply put a stop to that kind of group dynamic.

He's going to argue that his Int 20 12th level Wizard with max ranks in Alchemy and Knowledge (Engineering) ought to be a rather impressive inventor

See my above point about magic. Wouldn't that same hypothetical player try to design unbalancing spells?

Don't assume that you can out knowledge a player.

As general advice, that's good. But why is it relevant? All the player erudition in the world can't turn a DM's 'no' into a 'yes'.

I know of at least three campaigns that went this route because the player(s) wouldn't be reasonable and not use his OOC knowledge, and the DM couldn't control it without the player getting upset that the DM was unreasonably trying to stifle his character/railroad/etc.

So you know of three dysfunctional campaigns. That only shows you've had a run of back luck with your gaming groups.

In this way, I invalidate a player's OOC knowledge and can even (if I'm annoyed) justify it going dangerously wrong.

There really shouldn't be any need for this, assuming you're playing with reasonable people and/or friends. If you've gotten to point where you need to defend your decisions as DM as if you're defending a thesis or presenting a case in court, you should step back a moment and address the underlying problems in the way your group relates to each other.

Anyway,guns...

I'd set the damage on the higher side. Make them a serious rival for low/mid level magics, unless you want them to disappear from use relatively quickly. Up the firing rate to something patently unrealistic for the same reason. A 'cool new element' added to the game should see some use.

I'd also add simple yet funky mechanic to differentiate firearms from human-powered missile weapons, like making them touch attacks at close range (and normal attacks beyond)