What do you think of Dragonfire Adepts?

Felon said:
Is there any official ruling on this being an illegal option? It seems that the language of the requirement is to prevent creatures with long recharges from taking the feats, not creatures with short recharges.

You mean has someone with the official authority to do so made it clear a dragonfire adept can't use metabreath feats? Not that I know of.

Once I've written (co-written in this case) a WotC book, I no longer have any official power to make rules calls.

All I can say is: 1. We weren't thinking about how to balance metabreath feats when the class was written. 2. In MHO, the RAW of metabreath feats don't allow the dragonfire adept because it isn't -written- as a recharge time of 1ce a round, even if it acts that way. 3. While I haven't extensively playtested metabreath options I have allowed it in my games as a house rule, and have not regretted that decision to date.

If you are a DM being asked to allow dragonfire adepts with metabreath, I'd allow it on an ad hoc basis at best, warning that a: you reserve the right to forbid specific metabreath feats and b: if a feat turns out to be overpowering, you'll have the PC struck by arcane lightning that takes away that ability (allowing the player to replace that feat with a different one).
 

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Kamikaze Midget said:
Three words: "Rule Freakin' Zero."

I don't see any good reason why Dragonfire Adepts *shouldn't* be able to use metabreath feats, which give them the standard 1d4 round delay, + whatever the metabreath feat has, before they can use their breath weapon again.

They already have other options. Let's turn the table: why should they be able to? What about them entitles them to unlimited use metas?

Let's take rules zero to the curb and stomp it. Try this: dragonfire adept, feat that gives them extra uses of an ability (since, after all, at will is virtually the same thing as 14,400/day) plus a quicken ability and maximize breath.

So the maximize the breath in round one, and quicken it. Now, they still have an action left. Ordinarily, they would have to wait several rounds, but they can now use their breath attack an additional time thanks to a feat. So they do, and breath again, and maximize it again. So in round one, they launch two maximized breaths.

I would think that as an at will ability, their breath weapon should be treated similarly to a warlock's blast and work with feats for spell-like abilities (or supernatural, can't remember for the dragonfire adept). The feats already exist; why start introducing weird rules questions just so you can have a feat that has the word "breath" in it? Unlimited metas seems like a potential problem.
 

Just my 2 cents:

pawsplay said:
Let's take rules zero to the curb and stomp it. Try this: dragonfire adept, feat that gives them extra uses of an ability (since, after all, at will is virtually the same thing as 14,400/day) plus a quicken ability and maximize breath.

So the maximize the breath in round one, and quicken it. Now, they still have an action left. Ordinarily, they would have to wait several rounds, but they can now use their breath attack an additional time thanks to a feat. So they do, and breath again, and maximize it again. So in round one, they launch two maximized breaths.

Lets see...
The breath of the dragonfire adept is usable at will as a standard action -> 1/round with recharge time of 0 rounds. The description of the ability doesn't describe it as an invocation or spell-like ability, thus I would rule it as a supernatural ability, just like any other breath weapons I can recall.

I disagree with you about several things here:
1-Maximize Breath specifically says that you must use the breath weapon as full-round action, thus, you can't use it more than once in any given round.
2-If the breath is a supernatural ability, that means that you can't use it with Quicken Spell-Like Ability and the Quicken Breath specifically says that you can't combine it with Maximize Breath.
3-Even if the Maximized Breath counts as a Spell-Like Ability, thus allowing you to use it as a free action via Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and supposing that you allow the Quicken effect to override the "Full round action" thingy, the +3 rounds delay kicks in as soon as you spit the first Maximized Breath in any given round. Thanks to the delays you just can't breath (the word "cast" doesnt quite feel right) more than 1 "metabreathed breath" (did that even make sense??) in any given round.
4-The feats that give extra uses for an ability specifically say that the ability must have a limited amount of uses per day. (otherwise the breath of a True Dragon would have something between 2880 and 7200 uses per day and I really don't know how you would handle the extra uses.)

In fact, I don't find Maximize or Quicken breath that bad. Enlarge Breath, Lingering Breath and Clinging Breath, however, are absolutely broken. Why? Well, RAW, there's nothing that keeps you (or any True Dragon with proper feats) from belching a truly epic cone of fire that extends 5'000,000 gazillion of light years into deep space and will stay there for a friggin' millenium as long as you don't mind ever using your breath weapon again. I simply can't understand why Heighten Breath is the only one that puts a cap on the feat to avoid this kind of sillyness.

To prevent this, I would home rule that all metabreath feats that stack with themselves may be stacked up to a maximum of times equal to the "breather's" Con bonus.

Thinking about it, I feel that the delay drawback for the metabreaths begins to crack apart on high level play, as soon as you begin to stack 3 or more effects on the same breath. I don't believe that warlock-like classes were supposed to be able to get unlimited novas.

Picture it:
First round-> entangling, maximized, heightened, split, clinging, discorporating breath of bahamut (that's double damage + disintegration for you) FTW!!!

The fact that you must wait 15 rounds before using your breath weapon again doesn't feels as a particularly balancing drawback.

If you don't want to disallow the feats, I would recommend you to find another way to control the overstacking. (Put a limit to the amount of delay that you can add to a breath, or something like that.)
 

Freymold said:
The breath of the dragonfire adept is usable at will as a standard action -> 1/round with recharge time of 0 rounds.

Disagree. At-will implies no "recharge time". If you got another Standard action on your turn, could you use the breath weapon twice in one round? Yes. Thus, it's not a "zero round" recharge time -- there's no concept of recharge at all.

Can't measure what's not there (in rounds or otherwise). IMHO, not qualified.

Cheers, -- N
 

Freymold said:
Thinking about it, I feel that the delay drawback for the metabreaths begins to crack apart on high level play, as soon as you begin to stack 3 or more effects on the same breath. I don't believe that warlock-like classes were supposed to be able to get unlimited novas.

Picture it:
First round-> entangling, maximized, heightened, split, clinging, discorporating breath of bahamut (that's double damage + disintegration for you) FTW!!!

The fact that you must wait 15 rounds before using your breath weapon again doesn't feels as a particularly balancing drawback.

I'll agree with this. Since high-level fights go for only a handful of rounds usually, even a dragon is unlikely to use its breath more than once or twice. When we fought Dragotha, the entire fight lasted 3 rounds, and he used his breath weapon once. In such instances, going crazy with stacking metabreath is a great option.

Maybe giving up dice of damage would be a better option rather than extending the recharge.
 

I honestly find the Dragonfire Adept to be a poor class. D8 HD but no armor & poor BAB. An Invocation list smaller than a Warlock's and a class ability list that does not include the valuable UMD mastery of the Warlock.

Dragon Shaman is better IMHO, as you can use the Metabreath feats with that class.
 

pawsplay said:

House rule.

Dragon adept breath has a recharge time of 0 or 1 whatever would give them 1/round


Can I also then take a Feat that gives me extra uses a day, and use those uses while it's recharging?

Can a dragon do so with its breath weapon?

Nothing under metabreath says it gives a recharge time to at will abilities.

No, but we started with that assumption. Under RAW it doesn't work because there is no recharge time, thus the need to add on a recharge time to get it to work.
 

pawsplay said:
They already have other options. Let's turn the table: why should they be able to? What about them entitles them to unlimited use metas?

Class based around emulating dragon breath weapons is theme appropriate to use dragon breath weapon abilities.
 

The other problem with metabreath feats is: Five-Fold Breath of Tiamat!!! (The class feature so cool it needs its own theme music.)

Applying a problematic metabreath feat x5 ... urp.

Cheers, -- N
 


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