What do you think of the ECLs in the MM?

[CRGreathouse]

I think the LAs are a bit on the high side - probably because monster HD are overvalued. Monster HD in and of themselves are pretty darn weak compared to class levels, so they should probably get a few of those benefits they keep charging LAs for included with their HD.

If you look at various LAs, you'll see that they charge higher LAs when the underlying HD are better -- giants have low LAs while outsiders have high LAs. That's because LA is meaningless in isolation -- a dragon HD is worth almost a whole character level, but a fey HD isn't worth even a third of a character level.

In essence, the designer(s) who chose LAs understood that LA is meaningless and only ECL matters. Why they use the split terminology is beyond me.

A monster that has a completely overblown ECL is the doppelganger, I calculated it at LA +2. The Doppelgangers features are completely overrated and by no means worth LA +4 (thats sums up VERY hefty with the 4 racial hit die that you have to take)
The Doppelganger is a complete joke.

Also why is the Efreeti ECL 18? He has the ability to grant wishes yes, but it can use them to benefit itself so why is it ECL 18?? At least they could have put in an alternate ECL for the Efreeti without the wish ability.

OK, so that's a vote for doppelganger as too expensive.

As for the efreeti... I don't think it's even listed as playable in 3.5.

 

[Ferret]

Not enough of them, lots of playable creatures that have no ECL

 

[Endur]

Mountain Giant is too low in my opinion (MM 2, ECL 25, i.e. LA -5 with 30 Giant levels).

30 giant levels, size colossal, natural armor +29, crush, summon giants, etc.
Str +32, con +26, int -4, chr -4

 

[frankthedm]

I think the ECLs are about right to deal with min maxers, but should be reconsidered on case for case basis by the dm in case someone actualy wants to role play a critter.

 

[Psifon]

ECL's don't really work as a concept. This is because the abilities you get as a monster don't scale, and character levels do scale. You can get a bit of benefit out of a +1 or even a +2 ECL, but anything after that and you are looking for trouble.

If you DO want to play a monster, your best bet is to go with the fighter/barbarian archetype. This is because while the character levels scale, they do so in a liniar fasion with warrior classes. If you want to use a monster as the basis of a spellcaster or even a rogue, you are shooting yourself in the foot, because your always going to be behind the power curve of your class.

I believe this was done deliberately to prevent too much munchinized monsters, and also because any real solution to the problem would reaquire one or several "monster PrC's" be made for each and every monster in the MM.

 

[jgsugden]

The ECL system doesn't work. The basic concept behind it is that if you make a creature weaker by taking away hit dice, you can balance out the presence of exceptional abilities to which PCs normally do not have access.

Instead of a situation with a nice balance of abilities, you create an entity that is both too strong in some ways and too weak in others. Low hit dice result in many deaths. While alive, the PC has too much of an effect on the game. The character may be balanced in total power, but no aspect of the character is balanced by itself. This results in frustration for the player when his PC dies too often and frustration for the other players when his PC has too much of an effect on the game and negates the contribution of the other PCs.

If you want to play a monster PC, I strongly suggest against playing a version straight out of the books. Instead, figure out which of the creature's abilities is the strongest ability. Then, figure out when a PC playing a 0 ECL class might get access to a similar or identical ability. Add in other abilities nd hit points to make the new race equivalent in power to a PC of that level.

If you want a quick and easy system, use the ECL system. If you want a balanced system, build it from scratch.

 

[Will]

The other problem is that ECL for many monsters should scale by level.

For example, the ability to fly is of great benefit at low levels, but at 10th+? Heck, a ring or spell is easy to get.

This is one reason creatures with scaling abilities are probably a bit more fair. As level goes up, power goes up... so ECL would be more likely to be stable.

Oh, in addition to fighters and barbarians, I think rogues might work fairly stably with most monsters. Mainly because they are still pretty combatish.