What do you want to see in D20 Dragonlance?
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Squire James
Explorer
Some of this is more detailed than you probably want, but I'm tossing around my ideas about how I would run a DL campaign if I started one today.
1. Please, please, PLEASE make kender, gnomes, and gully dwarves serious races at their core! If a player wants to play it for comic effect, he can do it without help from game mechanics.
2. As a corollary of #1, if gnomes are going to tinker, make the ability useful enough that someone might want to play one. I currently favor making Tinker Gnome a Prestige Class, and working in all the tinkering rules into the class... perhaps linked to Craft (tinkering) like a Bard is to Perform.
3. The Knights are perfect for a prestige class. I favor 1 class for each major Order (3 classes for KoS, 3 classes for KoT), though I can see combining them into one class each for sake of brevity (KoT may be hard to do that way). Levels in the prestige class literally represents the Knight's prestige within the Knighthood. For instance, a Ftr5/KoS3 would garner much more respect than a Ftr12/KoS1, even though the latter would be a much better warrior.
4. Again, the prestige class structure works fairly well for Tower of High Sorcery wizards. Effectively, I would force a wizard to specialize in one of his Order's preferred schools, but he can choose his own forbidden schools according to regular D&D rules. Thus, a Black Robe wizard cannot specialize in Evocation, but he isn't forced to choose it as a forbidden school either.
5. DL rules for Clerics are rather simple if the Gods are always present or always absent during the campaign, but those transitional periods are rather tricky. I favor the use of Aristocrat levels as "placeholders" for potential Cleric levels (that NPC class is one of the better NPC classes, and much like Clerics without spells to boot). More humble clerics will form later, but the first Dragonlance clerics cropping up usually tend to be a noble of some sort (like Goldmoon and Elistan). Similarly, Clerics turn back to pumpkins... er, Aristocrats... when the Gods leave. Simple, no?
1. Please, please, PLEASE make kender, gnomes, and gully dwarves serious races at their core! If a player wants to play it for comic effect, he can do it without help from game mechanics.
2. As a corollary of #1, if gnomes are going to tinker, make the ability useful enough that someone might want to play one. I currently favor making Tinker Gnome a Prestige Class, and working in all the tinkering rules into the class... perhaps linked to Craft (tinkering) like a Bard is to Perform.
3. The Knights are perfect for a prestige class. I favor 1 class for each major Order (3 classes for KoS, 3 classes for KoT), though I can see combining them into one class each for sake of brevity (KoT may be hard to do that way). Levels in the prestige class literally represents the Knight's prestige within the Knighthood. For instance, a Ftr5/KoS3 would garner much more respect than a Ftr12/KoS1, even though the latter would be a much better warrior.
4. Again, the prestige class structure works fairly well for Tower of High Sorcery wizards. Effectively, I would force a wizard to specialize in one of his Order's preferred schools, but he can choose his own forbidden schools according to regular D&D rules. Thus, a Black Robe wizard cannot specialize in Evocation, but he isn't forced to choose it as a forbidden school either.
5. DL rules for Clerics are rather simple if the Gods are always present or always absent during the campaign, but those transitional periods are rather tricky. I favor the use of Aristocrat levels as "placeholders" for potential Cleric levels (that NPC class is one of the better NPC classes, and much like Clerics without spells to boot). More humble clerics will form later, but the first Dragonlance clerics cropping up usually tend to be a noble of some sort (like Goldmoon and Elistan). Similarly, Clerics turn back to pumpkins... er, Aristocrats... when the Gods leave. Simple, no?
The original Chronicles/Legends were the first TSR-published books I ever read; other than those, I didn't like any of the DL books. None of them 'felt' right. Then again, I dislike 99.9999% of all of the old TSR/current WotC published novels.
I think that, for me, a new version has to cover things that previous versions have not. It has to do justice to the 'legends'of the series - the Raistlin thing, the Finstandantilus thing etc. None of this 'Here's Raistlin at the end of the Chronicles - 20th level' nonsense. I want to know what Raistlin's stats were at the height of his powers; same with other major NPCs.
Foar me, DL was always about the characters - yet the game books never did justice to them. Lord Soth was not the same as i the books - even close - and neither were half the heroes/villains of the world.
The best thing about the series, for me, was the cool high-powered yet not Forgotten-Realmsy stuff. Master of Past & Present? It sounds cool in the books - translate that to the various game interpretations, and you just get a flat, apatheitic, uninspiring paragraph or so.
As for periods of play - I'm not interested in the 5th Age stuff, but I realise that others are. I think that every Age should be dealt with in detail.
Most importantly - the whole thing should capture that 'Dragonslancy' atmosphere present in Weiss & Hickman's original offerings, but lacking later. It should not feel like FR or GH. It's got a lot of colour, history, poetry etc., and this should be used to full advantage. Heh - perhaps a leaf form the Cthulhu d20 special edition should be adopted - include a CD in the book with various classic DL musical pieces on it.
I think that, for me, a new version has to cover things that previous versions have not. It has to do justice to the 'legends'of the series - the Raistlin thing, the Finstandantilus thing etc. None of this 'Here's Raistlin at the end of the Chronicles - 20th level' nonsense. I want to know what Raistlin's stats were at the height of his powers; same with other major NPCs.
Foar me, DL was always about the characters - yet the game books never did justice to them. Lord Soth was not the same as i the books - even close - and neither were half the heroes/villains of the world.
The best thing about the series, for me, was the cool high-powered yet not Forgotten-Realmsy stuff. Master of Past & Present? It sounds cool in the books - translate that to the various game interpretations, and you just get a flat, apatheitic, uninspiring paragraph or so.
As for periods of play - I'm not interested in the 5th Age stuff, but I realise that others are. I think that every Age should be dealt with in detail.
Most importantly - the whole thing should capture that 'Dragonslancy' atmosphere present in Weiss & Hickman's original offerings, but lacking later. It should not feel like FR or GH. It's got a lot of colour, history, poetry etc., and this should be used to full advantage. Heh - perhaps a leaf form the Cthulhu d20 special edition should be adopted - include a CD in the book with various classic DL musical pieces on it.
XCorvis
First Post
It's not what I want to see, it's what I don't:
Gully Dwarves as fully funtional PCs.
Kender "pocket" tables.
Stupid Tinker Gnomes. (If they ever made working stuff, that'd be fine. I hate the useless stupid tinker gnomes of 2e DL and spelljammer.)
Other than that, I would like to see:
Minotaur and Irda PCs.
Draconians that can easily handle character levels.
Lots of PrCs.
Cool stuff with dragons.
Gully Dwarves as fully funtional PCs.
Kender "pocket" tables.
Stupid Tinker Gnomes. (If they ever made working stuff, that'd be fine. I hate the useless stupid tinker gnomes of 2e DL and spelljammer.)
Other than that, I would like to see:
Minotaur and Irda PCs.
Draconians that can easily handle character levels.
Lots of PrCs.
Cool stuff with dragons.
Dragonlance 3E
It's been veritable ages since I last played a game of D&D in the realm of Krynn. Buried away in my closet back home is the 2E boxed set that I treasured so dearly as a young gamer. The Dragonlance novels written by Weis and Hickman were my first introduction to D&D. I had some good times playing around in their world.
That said, I would be very interested in a 3E rendition of Dragonlance, but only if it were done properly. My opinion on what is properly is thus:
Pretend that the 5th Age never happened.
The whole Saga/5th Age debacle is precisely the moment I lost all interest in Dragonlance and converted to the Forgotten Realms full-time. The changes were far too drastic, completely altering the setting as I knew and loved it. That said, I would like to see a return to the Dragonlance I enjoyed so much. Chronicle the War of the Lance such that players can use that time period for their campaign or set their games immediately thereafter. Give us the history of Krynn, Cataclysm and all of that other good stuff. Make it as rich as the Forgotten Realms book.
Provide the statistics for Krynn's unique races, such as the Irda, Kender, Tinker Gnomes, Minotaurs and others. Don't deviate from the basic ideas set forth in the 2E boxed set. I agree with others that Kender, Tinker Gnomes, and Gully Dwarves tend to degenerate into foolishness. Adhere to the original templates and curb the silliness.
Wizards from the High Tower of Sorcery should be prestige classes available at 4th level. I believe that was when a mage had to declare alliegance back in 2E. Likewise, the Knights of Solamnia should also be prestige classes. As there are some differences in opinion as to how this would be implemented, I'd suggest that advancing in the Prestige Class would allow one to also advance in the Order, with perhaps the 5th or 10th level of the PrC being a Knight of the Rose. In any case, I do not want to see another core class. Stick with the ones presented in the core books.
That said, I would not like to see the rules for Dragonlance 3E differ from the core rules. Like Forgotten Realms, make this as close to being a pure D&D setting as you can.
Provide descriptions of the NPC's, complete with stat blocks. Give us a taste of some of the more prominent magical items. Most importantly, just give us back the Dragonlance that we all like best. Do that and I think you'll have a winner on your hands.
Gaius
It's been veritable ages since I last played a game of D&D in the realm of Krynn. Buried away in my closet back home is the 2E boxed set that I treasured so dearly as a young gamer. The Dragonlance novels written by Weis and Hickman were my first introduction to D&D. I had some good times playing around in their world.
That said, I would be very interested in a 3E rendition of Dragonlance, but only if it were done properly. My opinion on what is properly is thus:
Pretend that the 5th Age never happened.
The whole Saga/5th Age debacle is precisely the moment I lost all interest in Dragonlance and converted to the Forgotten Realms full-time. The changes were far too drastic, completely altering the setting as I knew and loved it. That said, I would like to see a return to the Dragonlance I enjoyed so much. Chronicle the War of the Lance such that players can use that time period for their campaign or set their games immediately thereafter. Give us the history of Krynn, Cataclysm and all of that other good stuff. Make it as rich as the Forgotten Realms book.
Provide the statistics for Krynn's unique races, such as the Irda, Kender, Tinker Gnomes, Minotaurs and others. Don't deviate from the basic ideas set forth in the 2E boxed set. I agree with others that Kender, Tinker Gnomes, and Gully Dwarves tend to degenerate into foolishness. Adhere to the original templates and curb the silliness.
Wizards from the High Tower of Sorcery should be prestige classes available at 4th level. I believe that was when a mage had to declare alliegance back in 2E. Likewise, the Knights of Solamnia should also be prestige classes. As there are some differences in opinion as to how this would be implemented, I'd suggest that advancing in the Prestige Class would allow one to also advance in the Order, with perhaps the 5th or 10th level of the PrC being a Knight of the Rose. In any case, I do not want to see another core class. Stick with the ones presented in the core books.
That said, I would not like to see the rules for Dragonlance 3E differ from the core rules. Like Forgotten Realms, make this as close to being a pure D&D setting as you can.
Provide descriptions of the NPC's, complete with stat blocks. Give us a taste of some of the more prominent magical items. Most importantly, just give us back the Dragonlance that we all like best. Do that and I think you'll have a winner on your hands.
Gaius
Randolpho
First Post
I'd just like to thank the people at Soverieign Press for actually lurking here and soaking up the input people are giving. Even some of the tongue-in-cheek stuff, like Rowenstin's last comment (ok, maybe not exactly "tongue-in-cheek" morelike "vehement" ) can serve to show what people want from a Dragonlance setting.
My own desires:
1) Full D&D 3e complaince with core classes. That means Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Rangers, 1/2 Orcs, the whole kit-and-caboodle.
2) As full as possible compliance with previous incarnations of Dragonlance and D&D within the boundaries of 3rd edition rules -- lunar power fluctuations for mages, etc.
3) Generic rules for *any* time-period, with notes/appendices on limitations when playing in other time periods (no clerics pre-War of the Lance, no Sorcerers pre-5th Age, no Clerics/Wizards post Chaos War, everything post War of Souls, etc.)
4) Please, don't make the non-core races PC races. Minotaur PCs are best suited for the optional Monsters as a PC rules.
5) Unlike some here, I couldn't care less what the major NPCs' stats are. RPGs aren't about the NPCs, they're about the *PC*s. Major NPC stats are best suited, IMO, for a supplement.
6) On the "tiny three" races... I personally don't think they need changing. However, given the obvious stereotypes of the races, perhaps it might be a good idea to have some small meta-game section discussing the perceived role of these races vs what they actually are and represent. Perhaps in a boxout.
Oh, and make sure Gully Dwarves are not PCs. They are, like Minotaur, best suited for optional rules.
7) Squire James' Aristocrat/Cleric rules for transition periods is an interesting one, but not quite what I think should be done. New clerics during/after the War of the Lance should multiclass, following the standard multiclass rules. Suddenly gaining vast power the moment the Gods are rediscovered sorta taints the flavor for me. I'd much rather have them start at first level and grow in their newfound faith.
For post Chaos War, some form of "ex-cleric" (obviously mirroring the ex-paladin) should be created.
8) Prestige classes, Prestige classes, prestige classes! Drop all of the PrCs from the core rulebook (they're Greyhawk, not DL!), and come up with a slew that fit the setting. Examples might include: High Sorcerer -- Pass test in tower of High Sorcery to gain ability to tap into power of moons. Must choose a robe of color at this point.
Knight of Sword, Crown, Rose -- Join ranks of Knights of Solomia to gain combat, leadership, possibly some clerical abilities (see point 9). Perhaps allow paladins (only in appropriate eras, of course) to freely multiclass between these PrCs. This would be an option for me, as I never truly understood if some of the Knights were considered paladins after the War of the Lance or not.
Knight of Takhisis PrCs to mirror Solomnia (I can't remember what they were... thorn, lilly, and something) -- only available post and just pre-Chaos War.
9) I think this would be a major boon to a world that sees a war every other decade -- MASS COMBAT RULES!!!!! Especially rules for allowing the PCs to lead/enter large-scale wars, rather than individual skirmishes. I have not a single suggestion at the moment for how to go about doing this, but I think it would be an outstanding thing to see in Dragonlance. *Especially* if it were in the core rules, but I would understand if it were relegated to a supplement...
Ok, that's all I can think of offhand. More, I'm sure is forthcoming, and again, thanks for taking the time to read this, Jamie.
) can serve to show what people want from a Dragonlance setting. My own desires:
1) Full D&D 3e complaince with core classes. That means Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Rangers, 1/2 Orcs, the whole kit-and-caboodle.
2) As full as possible compliance with previous incarnations of Dragonlance and D&D within the boundaries of 3rd edition rules -- lunar power fluctuations for mages, etc.
3) Generic rules for *any* time-period, with notes/appendices on limitations when playing in other time periods (no clerics pre-War of the Lance, no Sorcerers pre-5th Age, no Clerics/Wizards post Chaos War, everything post War of Souls, etc.)
4) Please, don't make the non-core races PC races. Minotaur PCs are best suited for the optional Monsters as a PC rules.
5) Unlike some here, I couldn't care less what the major NPCs' stats are. RPGs aren't about the NPCs, they're about the *PC*s. Major NPC stats are best suited, IMO, for a supplement.
6) On the "tiny three" races... I personally don't think they need changing. However, given the obvious stereotypes of the races, perhaps it might be a good idea to have some small meta-game section discussing the perceived role of these races vs what they actually are and represent. Perhaps in a boxout.
Oh, and make sure Gully Dwarves are not PCs. They are, like Minotaur, best suited for optional rules.
7) Squire James' Aristocrat/Cleric rules for transition periods is an interesting one, but not quite what I think should be done. New clerics during/after the War of the Lance should multiclass, following the standard multiclass rules. Suddenly gaining vast power the moment the Gods are rediscovered sorta taints the flavor for me. I'd much rather have them start at first level and grow in their newfound faith.
For post Chaos War, some form of "ex-cleric" (obviously mirroring the ex-paladin) should be created.
8) Prestige classes, Prestige classes, prestige classes! Drop all of the PrCs from the core rulebook (they're Greyhawk, not DL!), and come up with a slew that fit the setting. Examples might include: High Sorcerer -- Pass test in tower of High Sorcery to gain ability to tap into power of moons. Must choose a robe of color at this point.
Knight of Sword, Crown, Rose -- Join ranks of Knights of Solomia to gain combat, leadership, possibly some clerical abilities (see point 9). Perhaps allow paladins (only in appropriate eras, of course
) to freely multiclass between these PrCs. This would be an option for me, as I never truly understood if some of the Knights were considered paladins after the War of the Lance or not. Knight of Takhisis PrCs to mirror Solomnia (I can't remember what they were... thorn, lilly, and something) -- only available post and just pre-Chaos War.
9) I think this would be a major boon to a world that sees a war every other decade -- MASS COMBAT RULES!!!!! Especially rules for allowing the PCs to lead/enter large-scale wars, rather than individual skirmishes. I have not a single suggestion at the moment for how to go about doing this, but I think it would be an outstanding thing to see in Dragonlance. *Especially* if it were in the core rules, but I would understand if it were relegated to a supplement...
Ok, that's all I can think of offhand. More, I'm sure is forthcoming, and again, thanks for taking the time to read this, Jamie.
Volaran
First Post
Hmmmmm, in regards to prestige classes.
High Sorceror as a single PrC with characters simply choosing between orders makes sense to me.
Knights of Solamnia were ment to progress through the orders, so perhaps Crown, Sword and Rose and 3 level prestige classes ment to be taken one after another.
The Knights of Takhisis though, had three seperate branches. Death Lily Knights are the warriors, Thorn Knights are mages and Skull Knights are priests. Five or ten level prestige classes ment to be taken singly would work best in my opinion.
High Sorceror as a single PrC with characters simply choosing between orders makes sense to me.
Knights of Solamnia were ment to progress through the orders, so perhaps Crown, Sword and Rose and 3 level prestige classes ment to be taken one after another.
The Knights of Takhisis though, had three seperate branches. Death Lily Knights are the warriors, Thorn Knights are mages and Skull Knights are priests. Five or ten level prestige classes ment to be taken singly would work best in my opinion.
