What does 25 Wisdom get you?

[The Souljourner]

So, I'm looking through epic feats, and I note some pretty awesome things come up when you get to 25 in several stats. Con gets you fast healing 3, dex gets you an automatic miss from the guy you're dodging... but there's not much for 25 wisdom.

I'm in a campaign where epic feats are accessible, but none seem very applicable to my cleric, who is going to have 25 wisdom next level.

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about what kinds of abilities could be accessible to someone with 25 wisdom.

I know this rides the line of house rules, but I guess what I'm looking for are abilities that could be related to high wisdom, the way fast healing is related to high con.

Ideas?

-The Souljourner

 

[drnuncheon]

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about what kinds of abilities could be accessible to someone with 25 wisdom.

Potential to cast 15th level spells.
Bonus spell slots for levels 1-7.

Those are pretty nice, IMO.

That said, some general ideas:
- One of the focuses of wisdom is willpower. It might be possible to convince your DM to allow something along the lines of Dextrous Fortitude, but for Will instead, representing your phenomenal mastery of mind over matter.
- Another is awareness (your senses). Maybe you could develop a 'sixth sense' about something - the ability to sense magic, or the undead, etc.

J

 

[ruleslawyer]

I think that the ELH is informed by the idea that high spellcasting stats (except for Charisma, which is the weakest spellcasting stat, really) shouldn't be that useful outside of spellcasting. As it stands, a cleric has no incentive NOT to max Wisdom to the greatest extent possible (see the post above for some reasons why); it stands to reason that a high Wisdom doesn't really need to confer access to epic feats for it to be on the cleric's (or druid's) priority list.

 

[Lamoni]

As it stands, a cleric has no incentive NOT to max Wisdom to the greatest extent possible (see the post above for some reasons why); it stands to reason that a high Wisdom doesn't really need to confer access to epic feats for it to be on the cleric's (or druid's) priority list.

I could say that a fighter has no incentive NOT to max out Strength. A rogue has no incentive NOT to max out Dexterity. There should never be an incentive to NOT doing things. Just that you face tradeoffs where you wonder if points could be better spent elsewhere.

The Cleric would want high intelligence for more skill points. More strength for all the times it is fighting in Melee... or even with a bow. More dex for better reflex saves. More con for more HP's. You could argue that Wisdom is the cleric's best Stat. But after it gets to 19... or let's say 22. There could possibly be much more benefit in raising other stats than wisdom.

I don't see any reason why wisdom, intelligence, or charisma shouldn't confer access to epic feats. Just because they might choose to make it that high without a feat doesn't mean you shouldn't have a feat. A barbarian might raise his con to 25 on his own without a feat. A rogue could raise his dex to 25 without the incentive of a feat. That doesn't mean you should take away those feats.

 

[The Souljourner]

Here's the thing. I'm a second level character (don't ask), so bonus spell slots are limited to 2 1st level spells. Whoopteefreakindoo. Someone with 12 wisdom has almost the same benefits. And there are very few spells with saving throws that are worth casting at low levels. So, saying "it's your spellcasting stat" isn't much of a help. Besides, it's not like the fighter isn't also enjoying his 25 con by getting 7 bonus hitpoints per level. He needs hitpoints at least as much as a cleric needs bonus spells. So why should he get something as rockin' as fast healing?

So... Will replacing fort saves is a neat idea, but doesn't really give much of a benefit, really. My con is pretty high, and clerics get both will and fort, so it's not much of a help.

Now, replacing Reflex saves with will saves would be another issue entirely. Call it Prescient Reflexes... you're so aware, you get a heads up on where you should dive to, to avoid a fireball. Hrm... interesting.

A sixth sense is another interesting idea. Blindsense of course being the bomb-diggity of all senses...

-The Souljourner

 

[Lamoni]

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about what kinds of abilities could be accessible to someone with 25 wisdom.

Similar to what was already said...
The feat could offer a second will save if the first one failed.
The feat could add +5 to your initiative (stacking with improved initiative) to represent your awareness of your surroundings.
It could allow the character to automatically awake from sleep when there is movement within 15 ft.

For having 25 Intelligence or Charisma, that is a tougher problem.

 

[The Souljourner]

A second will save is kinda redundant.... you're so unlikely to fail a will save with 25 wisdom, it's not really beneficial.

I really like the way fast healing is related but different from the benefits you usually get from high con. I'm just having difficulty figuring out what an equivalent wisdom-based ability would be.

Adding a bonus to initiative is cool, and the type of thing I'm looking for (i.e. - somewhat related to wisdom, but not what you usually get from high wisdom) but isn't really on the right power level. Waking from sleep automatically is nice, but is so situational as to not be terribly useful.

-The Souljourner

 

[Artoomis]

FYI: There are six feats that require Wis 25.

I do think it would be fine to have some feats that that let you use Wisdom for various things - maybe for all saves (some classes allow Cha or even Con for this), damage, or some intuitive type things - second saves (ALWAYS valuable - what if you roll a "1?"), AC bonuses, Uncanny Dodge-like abilities, or things along those lines.

IMPROVED ELEMENTAL WILD SHAPE [WILD][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 25, ability to wild shape into an elemental.
Benefit: The character’s ability to wild shape into an elemental is expanded to include all elemental creatures (not just air, earth, fire, and water elementals) of any size that the character can take when using wild shape to become an animal. The character gains all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the elemental whose form he or she takes.
Normal: Without this feat, a character may only wild shape into a Small, Medium-size, or Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental.

LEGENDARY TRACKER [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Track, Knowledge (nature) 30 ranks, Survival 30 ranks.
Benefit: The character can track creatures across water, under-water, or through the air. This adds the surfaces of water, underwater, and air to the list of surfaces found under the Track feat:
Surface DC
Water 60
Underwater 80
Air 120

MAGICAL BEAST WILD SHAPE [WILD][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Knowledge (nature) 27 ranks, wild shape 6/day.
Benefit: The character can use his or her normal wild shape ability to take the form of a magical beast. The size limitation is the same as the character’s limitation on animal size. The character gains all supernatural abilities of the magical beast whose form he or she takes.

PLANAR TURNING [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Cha 25, ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Benefit: The character can turn or rebuke outsiders as if they were undead. An outsider has effective turn resistance equal to half its spell resistance (round down). If the character can turn undead, he or she turns (or destroys) all evil outsiders and rebukes (or commands) all nonevil outsiders. If the character can rebuke undead, he or she rebukes (or commands) all evil outsiders and turns (or destroys) all nonevil outsiders.

SPONTANEOUS DOMAIN ACCESS [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Wis 25, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells.
Benefit: Select a domain the character has access to. The character may spontaneously convert any prepared cleric spell (except a domain spell) into a domain spell of the same level in the selected domain, just as a cleric channels energy to convert spells into cure spells.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, it applies to a different domain.

VORPAL STRIKE [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Str 25, Wis 25, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Keen Strike, Stunning Fist, ki strike (adamantine).
Benefit: The character’s unarmed strike is considered to be a slashing vorpal weapon. (At the character’s option, any unarmed strike can do bludgeoning damage instead, but it loses the vorpal quality.) This ability doesn’t stack with similar abilities

 

[The Souljourner]

Two WildShape feats... whatever. I'm not a druid. One unarmed strike feat... whatever. I'm not a monk. One tracking feat... whatever, I'm not a ranger.

That leaves planar turning, which is pretty mediocre, and requires not one, but two stats at 25, and Spontaneous Domain Access (SDA). SDA is the only really viable epic feat that requires 25 wisdom and gives anything like a decent ability. It's actually pretty cool.... but not exactly what I'm looking for.

I did look through the existing epic feats before posting... it's just none of them really tickled my fancy, thus the post.

-The Souljourner

 

[Hypersmurf]

In 1E, Wis in the 20s granted immunity to assorted mind-affecting spells. I'd need to check my Legends and Lore, but it was something like the Charm spells at 21, Suggestion at 22, Dominates at 23... that sort of thing.

I haven't played anything at Epic levels, so I don't know if an Epic feat with a 25 Wis prereq granting a Mind Blank effect would be considered balanced or not...

-Hyp.