D&D 5E (2024) [+] What does a non-spellcaster Psion need/look like?

[J-H]

What does a psionic character do that is different? I'd rather see something more off-the-wall than "spellcaster but X."

For example, I recently read Dune Messiah for only the second time (first time was 30 years ago), and decided to throw together a character class based on Paul Atreides' psionic powers. Looking at the features, it blends aspects of rogue and monk with a super-specialized list of spells it can use. Like Muad'Dib, it carries almost no special abilities relating to deal damage, but a lot of options for information gathering, evading or negating attacks, and acting first.
I could see it working in the right campaign, but I'm not entirely sure the high to-hit chance and low damage would be fun to play, at least not without adding a magic weapon. It is designed to work about as well with a high strength build as high dex (you just need Dex 14). A feat or two will probably be needed to really hit a weapon specialization of some sort.
It is not designed with multiclassing in mind.

Spoiler: Prescient

Hit Dice: 1d8 per Prescient level
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, martial weapons, light & medium armor
Tools: None
Saving throws: Wisdom, Charisma [understanding and force of will]
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion

Level Feature
1 Danger sense: Wis mod to AC & Initiative
2 Detect poison (at will, 30'), +Wis to saving throws
3 Predictive Strike: Wis mod to hit; Expertise in 2 skills
4 Ability Score Improvement
5 Extra Attack
6 Deadly critical: Critical hits do bonus damage equal to your Prescient level
7 Uncanny Dodge, Clairvoyance (2/day? same for all the spells)
8 Ability Score Improvement
9 Evasion, Arcane Eye, Locate Creature
10 Ability Score Improvement
11 Perfected strike: +Wis to damage
12 Ability Score Improvement
13 Blindsight 30'
14 Commune with Nature; Expertise in 2 skills
15 Scrying
16 Ability Score Improvement
17 Legend Lore; Jack of All Trades (1/2 PB to all non-proficient skills)
18 True Seeing 120', blindsight 120', Expanded Critical range (19-20)
19 Ability Score Improvement
20 Perfect foresight: The Prescient has advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. Attacks against the Prescient have disadvantage. (basically the Foresight spell, always on)

At level 20 with maxed Wis and either Str or Dex maxed, he attacks twice at +16 with advantage for 1d8+10 damage, crit on 19-20 for +20 damage. Excluding crits, 2d8+20 (average 29) is about 65-75% of what you'd expect out of most martial classes at level 20. GWM might stack really well on this if you use the unmodified 2014 feat.

Also at level 20 the max AC is about 22 (half plate 15, dex +2, wis +5), or 25 with +3 armor unless a feat is spent picking up a shield.

Like I said, damage is sub-par, but great for both physical and social intel-gathering, spying, & preparation, as well as pretty hard to kill and reasonably competent in a one-on-one sword/knife duel under any circumstance thanks to good defenses and to-hit making up for the lower damage.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Something other than spell slots. Ideally no components eithet.

Other than that it can follow the general rules for magic so as to not side-step the usual defenses, but it should be distinct from “casting a spell” in a noticeable way.

My personal preference is for psi dice, currently.

 

[Remathilis]

Something other than spell slots. Ideally no components eithet.

Other than that it can follow the general rules for magic so as to not side-step the usual defenses, but it should be distinct from “casting a spell” in a noticeable way.

My personal preference is for psi dice, currently.

I think one of the things that needs to be addressed when dealing with a psionic system that isn't apeing magic is how exactly do you counter it. Magic has very few hard counters as it stands: you can't cast spells with verbal components if unable to speak, somatic if unable to move your hand(s) and material if you lack the proper component (focus, pouch, or costly gp). Additionally, spells can be countered with counterspell, detected and dispelled with appropriate magic, susceptible to wild and dead magic zones, and resisted by certain creatures (like raksasha). A psion character should run into these types of problems about as regularly as a caster should: IE enough to be a concern but not enough to be useless all the time.

One of my biggest sticking points when psionics is different from magic is that you end up either in a situation where, since the game wasn't designed with psionics in mind, a Psion can run roughshod by ignoring the restrictions (a gagged, bound and naked psion using all his abilities with zero cost) or the game goes overly conservative and the Psion's abilities don't work on most things. (In 2nd edition, there were two different systems for psionics. In the first, every mind was assumed closed unless they had psionic ability and thus, psionic abilities like telepathy were difficult to do against an unwilling target. In the second version, the opposite was true, and all minds were open unless you were psionic and thus psionics could do what they wanted unless you had mental powers to stop them. Neither were particularly good systems).

So I think in this discussion about what a psion should be able to do its worth thinking about how you stop a psionic character from doing them with impunity. What are the counters to psionics? What challenges their powers?

 

[Chaltab]

Ultimately, that's why I'm willing to accept spellcasting psionics; there shouldn't be a reason that arcane, divine and primal power all use the same mechanics and psionics don't. But going back to change ADP to be mechanically distinct would be too radical a change to the game.

I'd amend that... it's not that it's too radical. Arcane and Divine casting has worked differently in the past--after all, divine originally only went to 7th level. But designing the different spell sources to work differently is a full edition level of change. It's something you'd need to plan and design around from the start, not something you revise 11 years in.

 

[mellored]

LOne of my biggest sticking points when psionics is different from magic is that you end up either in a situation where, since the game wasn't designed with psionics in mind, a Psion can run roughshod by ignoring the restrictions (a gagged, bound and naked psion using all his abilities with zero cost) or the game goes overly conservative and the Psion's abilities don't work on most things.

Many classes can get out of being bound and gagged. Druids for instance, just wildshape out of it. Or GOO warlocks, or subtle metamagic. So I don't see it as a big deal.

But how about their weakness be metal? Tie their hands and put an metal helmet on them, and they are helpless. There's already an example of that in fiction, with Juggernaut and Magneto wearing helmets to protect from Professor X.

What challenges their powers?

If your talking about an overall weakness, I suggest keeping them fairly short range (30', maybe 60' at high end). Combined with features that don't work with armor (because metal) similar to the monk (probably with mage armor for 13+ Dex AC).

Then they can be "counted" by anyone with decent range.

I personally don't see psionics as thematically long range abilities, or wearing armor.

 

[M_Natas]

Broadly speaking, part of D&D's problem is that there are so many different types of magic that it becomes hard to make meaningful differences.

Part of the problem is that D&D tries too hard to codify magic but then doesn't follow through on it. We use tags like arcane, divine, primal or psionic to qualify the differences and then further break them down by class (wizard spellcasting vs warlock pact magic) and subclass (draconic sorcery vs divine sorcery) and yet they all cast the same fireball spell. Realistically, a wizard, cleric, sorcerer, warlock, bard, artificer, druid and psion shouldn't be using the same types of magic mechanics, let alone spells. But I've tried playing 3e games with every character using different magic systems (psionics, incarnum, martial maneuvers, etc) and it's impossible to track who can do what and how.

Ultimately, that's why I'm willing to accept spellcasting psionics; there shouldn't be a reason that arcane, divine and primal power all use the same mechanics and psionics don't. But going back to change ADP to be mechanically distinct would be too radical a change to the game.

I don't know, WotC explained quite easily, that Divine, Primordial and Arcane Magic are basically all the same magic. So casting the same spells fit.
They all cast magic by manipulating the weave and use to weave to interface with raw magic. The only difference between Wizard, Cleric, Warlocks and sorcerer are how the interface with the weave.
Wizards do it directly with their Mind and learn my trough study. Clerics and Warlocks do it trough a third-party (God, Patron) and Sorcerers do it trough inborn/innate ability to access the weave.
It is all the same magic, just the Operating System differs.
Wizards are Linux User, Clerics are apple users, Warlocks are script-kiddies, Sorcerers dream in machine code...okay every analogy will break down eventually.

Psionics in contrast are something completely different. They don't use the weave. They use their own mind and body to power spells.
To make them "just cast spells like all the other casters", means they are basically wizards again, who manipulate the weave with their minds.

To make them different, you need to acknowledge that.

What was proposed here already with using Hit Dice as a ressource would reflect that. Psionics use themselves, if they do big stuff, it exhausts them, can even kill them (so when they are put of Hit Dice, they can use HP to sacrifice to power spells).

The funny thing is, the closest to a martial psionic is already jn the game:
Monks.
Replace Ki with PSI and you already have a martial psionic.

 

[Horwath]

The funny thing is, the closest to a martial psionic is already jn the game:
Monks.
Replace Ki with PSI and you already have a martial psionic.

This,
Rogue/fighter psi subclasses would both fit great on a monk.