D&D 5E What does balance mean to you?

The interesting thing about D&D rules is that there are a lot of people, at least on the forums, who think that a lot of the rules are great as is and don't like to change them. They'll argue for pages, for example, that the Advantage and Disadvantage rules are great (or that passive ability checks are great). Personally, I think that if WotC had written either of those rules differently, these same people would argue just as passionately that the alternative rule is great. To me, if a rule sucks or you don't like it for some reason, replace or modify it.
Or. Just maybe, some of the people who like the current rules do so because they have evaluated them and decided that they are good rules. Probably they would be happy to modify rules that you believed were fine because they don't like them.

Different people have their own opinions and preferences, and not all will be the same as yours.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Unfortunately the people who argue the most that combat feats are balanced between each other are the people who care least about combat. .
Or, they could be the least interested in balance.

Or, they could be very interested in combat, developed system mastery in that area, found those imbalaced feats and have a vested interest in them.

Or, they could just be pushing back against the observation of imbalance for its own sake.

Or....

Just maybe, some of the people who like the current rules do so because they have evaluated them and decided that they are good rules.
Seems improbable. ;P

I mean, there are a fair number of standard rules, a few optional ones, and a bunch of 'modules,' then there's the various possible meanings of each rule depending on how you interpret it, and the fluff text that might be taken for rules, and the rules that might be taken for fluff... then there's all the rules & variants you remember and half-remember from other editions (or, worse the playtest, if you were foolish enough to participate). Put all that together and what are you evaluating?

Any evaluation other than 'ambiguous' or 'complex' or 'best edition since 2e' is suspect, I think. ;)


Seriously (not really, I'm in a mood), though, there's always been some defensiveness around the current edition in the community. It's not that pronounced, this time around, and there's certainly not a lot to provoke it.
5e's a starting point, we're supposed to 'make it our own,' that means changing things we don't like which is, well, predicated upon not liking /something/.

If you find nothing worth changing in 5e, you're not doin' it right! Stop abusing 5e! Change something! Make it your own or be ostracized!
;P
 
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Hussar

Legend
Again, the thing though is, comparing Feat X with Feat Y isn't necessarily the whole story. There are all sorts of white room assumptions that go into those kinds of comparisons.

A better way, in my mind anyway, is to look at it a bit more holistically. Is someone with the Grappler feat, for example, so useless that the feat adds nothing to the character? Well, not really. Presumably someone with the Grappler feat is making a grappling style character. The feat is adding stuff, and it's not adding too much, so, even though it might be less overall useful than, say, Shield Mastery, it's not necessarily a large enough problem that it needs to be fixed.

For example, you need to use a shield if you want to use Shield Mastery. That seems a bit obvious, but, it is something to take into account. A shield user cannot use a bow, for example. So, your grappler can still use two handed weapons. You cannot simply drop a shield, or pick one up, it takes an action to take it off or put it on. Should we not count this opportunity cost here? Plus, any shield user is limited to Protection or Defense fighting styles. I mean, our Grappler Feat character could also have Dueling fighting style and gain +2 damage to his attacks.

Analysis is never cut and dried and I find that a LOT of the arguments for balance tend to make the focus too narrow.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Or. Just maybe, some of the people who like the current rules do so because they have evaluated them and decided that they are good rules. Probably they would be happy to modify rules that you believed were fine because they don't like them.

Different people have their own opinions and preferences, and not all will be the same as yours.

First off, I totally agree with your last sentence here and understand why that is.


But, I view it like I view bad drivers. They might not necessarily be doing something wrong at the moment, but just based on what they are doing, one knows to avoid them. Sure enough, a few minutes later, said driver cuts someone off or something.


It does seem to be subjective and more of a feeling, although some of it is based on things like logical fallacies, convoluted examples which seem to try to twist expectations to the mechanics of the rules as opposed to explaining why the rule matches expectation, etc. And I have to say right out that 5E is, IMO, the best version of D&D out there with the best rules. For the most part. I also don't think that everyone does this, more like maybe 10%. Like Tony said, the edition defensiveness is not that pronounced in this version like previous versions (especially 3E through 4E, but that just might be when the Internet started blooming).


But to give you an example (maybe a poor one in your mind) , let's look at Prone vs. Sharpshooter.

A Sharpshooter elf with a bow can shoot 300 feet (or 20 feet or however long) and hit a guy hanging out behind a tree, just because the guy only has 3/4ths cover and the top of his head is sticking out watching the elf shoot the bow. No penalty.

A Sharpshooter elf with a bow cannot shoot a prone foe 15 feet away without disadvantage. Both foes are just as alert. Both foes have the same AC. Everything is the same except for the game mechanics.


There are few good arguments as to why this makes sense (I actually cannot think of any). It's purely an artifact of multiple different mechanics being in play.

Except for the positioning of his body, the prone guy is a relatively larger target. He should have a more difficult time avoiding an arrow since it travels in the air for a shorter time and because he is not standing up where he has more body control, etc. My expectations is that he should be easier to hit.

Instead, he is harder to hit.


The rules here do not support, at least in my mind, a framework that matches my expectations of game world physics. So arguments to the contrary appear to be contrived, or merely arguments to argue, or arguments in defense of the game mechanics.

The rules, in this case, do not model my expectations. They are merely rules that seem to conflict from an immersive POV. I am ok using these rules as is because they are not important enough to houserule (we've only ever had one Sharpshooter PC and she did not question it), but they seem lacking.


Ditto for things like Mirror Image which some people think do not model their expectations. Some types of attacks pop an image, others do not solely from a mechanical reason, not from an immersive or plausibility reason. Granted in this case, we are talking magic. But, even so. It still seems like mechanics artifacts solely for the sake of mechanics.
 

Corwin

Explorer
Assumption? No - its based on a great deal of experience in these forums.
Does my greater experience here on this forum, as well as likely in TTRPGs in general, trump your assessment? Because I disagree with your theory. In fact, it may be the opposite. What if the people who complain most about "combat balance" are the ones who are so focused on combat that they don't get what that really even is? Maybe they are the least qualified to make assessments between the feats, because their application of the rules flies in the face of said rules' design intent?
 

First off, I totally agree with your last sentence here and understand why that is.


But, I view it like I view bad drivers. They might not necessarily be doing something wrong at the moment, but just based on what they are doing, one knows to avoid them. Sure enough, a few minutes later, said driver cuts someone off or something.
There are likely a few around: - just like there are a few on these boards who seem to have a vested interest in 'proving' the designers wrong. It was the broad strokes that you were using to apply that description that I was objecting to.

In any set of rules attempting to reflect a reality, you are going to find cases where they break down. Probably in 5e more than most because it relies on fewer, simpler rules rather than trying to cover every eventuality. At which point, you can simply accept that its not perfect, but use it anyway for the sake of speed and simplicity, rule that this situation will be something else, or adopt a houserule covering future situations involving these mechanics. Which you pick will probably depend on personal preferences and mood of you and your players.

(For example, several of my players are assorted martial artists and historians. A chunk of my houserules involve changes to the weapons table and rules to help their immersion.)

It is the case on forum discussions that someone wishing to make a point, is going to portray a situation in which that point is valid. Stating an opinion like "Ranged combat is OP" is fine, but if you are attempting to prove it as fact, you need to provide the base assumptions that you are working from and the situations that you are talking about.
Unfortunately, what you often end up with is a disagreement in which both sides have completely valid examples proving that they are correct, but with different base assumptions that mean they are not actually addressing each other's concerns.
 

schnee

First Post
Angel summoner/BMX bandit is usually the first example people give of imbalanced PC classes, and I will admit I only played 3e off and on (I stuck with AD&D). That being said, what I've found almost exclusively in these scenarios is that certain parts of the game are glossed over in the favor of the caster. Notably things like preparing spells, components, and spell interruption. Even in 3e, you still can only prepare a limited number of spells (unless you were a sorcerer, in which you were limited in other ways on spell choice). There is no way a player can prepare the perfect spells for all of the scenarios in that session. Their PC simply doesn't have enough slots to learn all the perfect combat spells and interaction spells and exploration spells, let alone how would the player know what to prepare. Then even if they did, do they have all or the required components? And do the monsters ever attack him or her when casting a spell in combat to interrupt them? And how does the player know how many encounters are going to be expected (meaning, how do they know how many spells they can cast that encounter and how many should they keep in reserve due to the unknown)? IME, what I've seen is parties cater to the caster's needs even if it goes against the natural flow of the game. I.e., "Well, we need to rest because I blew all of my spells." If you're doing that, then no wonder casters seem so powerful, because you're placing them as more important as anyone else by catering to them. Not to mention another thing I see a lot: PCs being able to rest whenever they want, AKA the DM pausing the game world when PCs decide to rest, which shouldn't happen.

Having seen it first hand in 3E, when a Wizard gets to a high enough level, you're unfortunately quite wrong. They can be bad-ass enough that the only way for the DM to challenge them is to cheat - and usually put them up against another Wizard.

I've been playing since Blue Box Basic. Basically, if you ran a tight ship in AD&D, the Wizard really was a 'glass cannon' that had huge amounts of power that was significantly held back by long memorization times, finding spell components, ease of disruption of casting, scarcity of new spells, vulnerability to a Cleric flinging a 'Silence' sling bullet, etcetera. It was a wacky form of being completely imbalanced, but the game was an escort mission to protect this incredibly squishy person that, if every single person coordinated well, could turn the tide of combat. Usually. :)

3E dashed all of that. They eliminated all the flaws Wizards had because they were 'annoying'. You could take feats to eliminate the necessity of components or gestures or vocalizations. Abilities and feats were added so they were able to cast even while soaking significant damage. You could 'take a 5' step' to disengage from a melee attacker and cast without any threat. Spell memorization times were reduced to nothing. Casters gained spells of their choice automatically every level.

The way spells mechanics were built - the saving throw scaling directly with high stats and caster level, and stat increases being automatic, and saving throws in general being weakened for martials to fit aesthetic looking charts - meant that spells relying on a single saving throw became incredibly overpowered and things like Magic Resistance (now called Spell Resistance) became trivialized.

Add to that the high 'wealth to level' amounts, and the straightforward magic item crafting rules, and the new '+1 to +5 to ability score' classes of magic items, and the rules gave the Wizard player fiat to craft monsters.

--

So, how to break a game as a Wizard:

Focus enough on raising spell saving throw DCs, via stat bonuses, feats, and crafting (which is easy and assumed in the world) and then get a small number of 'Save or Die/Suck/Incapacitated' spells, and no opponents can stand against you.

Multi-class into a few different Full Caster prestige classes that all have a front-loaded benefit, that when stacked together, make for a character functioning 2-3 levels higher than before in one narrow area - say, those high spell DCs - that work well enough that you don't have to become a generalist.

Stack a few buffs and a good Contingency, and you have strong enough defenses that you're impossible to take out before leaving again.

Supplement this with effective 'Scry and Die' tactics, with teleport, so the Wizard chooses the time and place of the confrontation, then leaves when they want to.

Add your usual Nondetection / Leomund's Tiny Hut / etc. and the Wizard is unreachable until a time of their choosing.

Buff out their tower with Explosive Runes and other defenses and attacking them in their home is incredibly costly to suicidal - and that's assuming the foes even have the resources or powers to find them.

So, unless the DM starts equipping enemies with Wizards of the same power level, a Wizard character in 3.X basically 'owned' the narrative. They decided what to do, the spell gave it to them, and they engaged when they wanted to.

We saw it in our games when a total munchkin came in to our group for a 12th level game. He made the Fighter and Rogue obsolete.

--

4E fixed it, with changes that worked wonderfully but changed the game too much for a big enough (and loud enough) portion of the user base.

5E tried to fix it in different ways that kept the old flavor, and largely succeeds, but still needs a meta game '6-8 encounters per day' to work or else casters run away with it again. It still breaks at high levels, just like AD&D always did, but it breaks late enough that most players never get the worst of it.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Again, the thing though is, comparing Feat X with Feat Y isn't necessarily the whole story. There are all sorts of white room assumptions that go into those kinds of comparisons.

A better way, in my mind anyway, is to look at it a bit more holistically. Is someone with the Grappler feat, for example, so useless that the feat adds nothing to the character? Well, not really. Presumably someone with the Grappler feat is making a grappling style character. The feat is adding stuff, and it's not adding too much, so, even though it might be less overall useful than, say, Shield Mastery, it's not necessarily a large enough problem that it needs to be fixed.

For example, you need to use a shield if you want to use Shield Mastery. That seems a bit obvious, but, it is something to take into account. A shield user cannot use a bow, for example. So, your grappler can still use two handed weapons. You cannot simply drop a shield, or pick one up, it takes an action to take it off or put it on. Should we not count this opportunity cost here? Plus, any shield user is limited to Protection or Defense fighting styles. I mean, our Grappler Feat character could also have Dueling fighting style and gain +2 damage to his attacks.

Analysis is never cut and dried and I find that a LOT of the arguments for balance tend to make the focus too narrow.

A grappler cannot use a bow, so a shield user not being able to is a mute point. Sure it takes an action to don or doff a shield, so a Shield Master grappler simply won't. Instead they're just make Unarmed Strikes, sacrificing damage yes, but gaining an extra attack which offsets the damage loss.

Also see my other point about Tavern Brawler being superior to Grappler, despite being a half-feat.
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
I think the "problem" with the combat feats not necessarily all being "balanced" is that such imbalance may be obvious to optimization-minded players, which means there are clearly superior choices for such players.

But for more casual players, they see something like Grappler and they're like "I like that, I'm gonna take it" and they don't care that it would be "smarter" to take Great Weapon Master or whatever. They have a concept for their character and the feat supports that concept and that's all they're worried about. So for those people, the feat works. For those people, the feats are "balanced" by presenting a variety of options and concepts with which to build a variety of characters.

So, the problem is an assumption on the part of the optimization minded players that the rules were written only for them. Because the rules were not.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
So, how to break a game as a Wizard:

Focus enough on raising spell saving throw DCs, via stat bonuses, feats, and crafting (which is easy and assumed in the world) and then get a small number of 'Save or Die/Suck/Incapacitated' spells, and no opponents can stand against you.

Multi-class into a few different Full Caster prestige classes that all have a front-loaded benefit, that when stacked together, make for a character functioning 2-3 levels higher than before in one narrow area - say, those high spell DCs - that work well enough that you don't have to become a generalist.

Stack a few buffs and a good Contingency, and you have strong enough defenses that you're impossible to take out before leaving again.

Supplement this with effective 'Scry and Die' tactics, with teleport, so the Wizard chooses the time and place of the confrontation, then leaves when they want to.

Add your usual Nondetection / Leomund's Tiny Hut / etc. and the Wizard is unreachable until a time of their choosing.

Buff out their tower with Explosive Runes and other defenses and attacking them in their home is incredibly costly to suicidal - and that's assuming the foes even have the resources or powers to find them.

So, unless the DM starts equipping enemies with Wizards of the same power level, a Wizard character in 3.X basically 'owned' the narrative. They decided what to do, the spell gave it to them, and they engaged when they wanted to.

We saw it in our games when a total munchkin came in to our group for a 12th level game. He made the Fighter and Rogue obsolete.

I'd like to see more specifics, because nothing I've seen will break any game I've ever run. From what you've listed, there are plenty of assumptions there that the wizard will always have access to whatever spell is perfect for the solution on hand, and no game I've ever been in has that been the case. Not directed at you specifically, but whenever I hear these arguments, this is the case (along with assuming the party will always rest whenever the wizard wants them to, and a few other things that skew in the wizard's favor).

Most gamers play in a level range between 3-12. So give me a 9th level wizard that will break the game. Specifically. What spells would you have prepared? I can assure you that nothing there would break the game, and I feel confident in explaining why.


--

4E fixed it, with changes that worked wonderfully but changed the game too much for a big enough (and loud enough) portion of the user base.

This confirms my suspicions of your bias. It had nothing to do with people being loud. The only thing that mattered was sales #s.
 

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