What does the criminal element look like in a NG town?

[Bear]

I have a Neutrally Good alligned town. It's pretty large, roughly 3,000 inhabitants. The DMG says a NG government rarely interferes with the governing of its people, usually only in cases where disputes need settling.

In a town like that what would the criminal element look like? How well would a thieves guild fare? Wouldnt it be easy pickins for the infiltration of Evil Orginazations?

I imagine that even tho the town is NG, they'd STILL have town guards patrolling the street, no?

I'm confused, how could such a liberal town NOT be taken advantage of?

 

[clark411]

Well, ya can interpret it one of a few ways and work from there..

1. The dominant power center/s in the town/country are NG. This means the Governor is a Neutral Good character with his own motivations, and the other power centers (if any) balance out to NG as well (a CG and LG who are constantly acting as the typical arguing councilors for the NG lord.. a philanthropic merchant lord seeking freer expansion of trade and goods for the betterment of the people vs the righteous paladin who is all "Gar Regulation Regulation!")

If you want to go this route.. think about how these power centers want crime dealt with. The base idea with NG is "benefaction" so really, the rules set down should be for the greater good of the people, though not really as restrictive. A NG society may have it's government and criminal processes focused on pushing through as many crime cases as possible rather than getting backed up for months waiting for the King's Justice. Criminal punishment may be severe, but the individual cases are reviewed on their own merit and the precedent of previous decisions... meaning that criminals get a more fair shake then they might in a LG society.. but the punishment is still pretty severe, if they don't go the rehabilitation route.

2. The second route is simply saying most people in the town are NG, it's the theme that has been supported by various churches in the area for so long that people just kind of adapt to being good with a free spirit as well as a significant respect for law. Most the laws reflect this.

If such is the case, then for the betterment of the society, crime may be strictly monitored and regulated. Thieves guilds may act openly, exchanging the service of deterring street urchins from pickpocketing people in the market district, in exchange for a monthly cut of the slightly larger taxes. People are not victimized, you can walk down the street at night without fear of being robbed or worse... except due to the typical anomalies (thieves guilds can't always prevent nutjob CE's from wandering into town and making with the bloodspray). The bottom line of what will make people's lives better, is what counts. Going slightly beyond absolute law and centralized power may be the key here.

 

[Voadam]

a NG government rarely interferes with the governing of its people, usually only in cases where disputes need settling.

I'm trying to figure this statement out (I don't have the 3.5 DMG). Does it mean the central government leaves governing mostly up to the local government?

A government that does not interfere with the governing of its people, I guess GOOD in D&D means strong local control versus centralized power from the feds.

 

[clark411]

All that said, it's important to note that a NG society, for all its nice qualities, is above all looking to keep the people happy and safe. A NG society is not a bunch of people waiting to be victimized by some nefarious villain- if they are, they're a *failing* NG society.

It's a common thought that Good is synonymous with "Victim" but that really isn't the case on a regular basis, unless you're really pushing for the "Gwar, Evil is Winning because Good Is Dumb... and it's up to the Heroes to Save the Day!" style. A NG society is, in theory, far less likely to be screwed over by villains and nefarious types than say, a LN or TN society is? Why? One of the first orders of the day in a Good leader's planner calendar is usually: "7 AM - 8 AM. Meeting with Council to discuss better ways to protect people from bad guys." ... ok maybe a little more refined than that.. but a Good government will be going out of its way to identify problem people more so than an evil government where the lords care only for their own well being, or a neutral government may be manipulated by either side if not strongly opposed to taking sides.

Being NG, I'd say if anything they're more likely to fall victim to things like rebellion or villains intent on undermining public opinion, than the typical 'make the heavens thunder before blatting the slums' kind of villain... unless of course the villain is so powerful he can't be stopped.. in which case the alignment of the city doesn't really matter that much.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Number of ways to look at this, the government is a figure head that works for the public good but the town is in reality controlled by groups, this could be guilds, church, or families. The government builds roads, sewers, stuff like that.

Theives and such would be part of the city and work within that structure and keep out of site. In some cases they would be powerful, acting as a balance/equilizer between the groups.

 

[Bear]

The town im working on has a nonstandard central government, it's a Neutral Good Theocracy. The head priest is also the towns 'mayor' tho he perfers to take a more priestly (paternal) role in guiding his town than a political one.

So it sounds more like your second assement is more along my vein. I've given him a paternal characterization. The towns folk are his flock and his 'children'.

This is all new... I'm just starting to work on this so this is all brainstorming...

Theives are given a fair shake in 'court'... what would a father do? He would probably try to get the criminal to see the error of his ways and reform him... but theives RARELY 'reform' so hes bound to return to his life of crime... which means he'll wind up in court again... and I suppose this time even a father would take a stronger hand with his child and punish him accordingly (Once shame on you, twice shame on me). But wouldnt that be classifying the society as "Lawful"? That seems pretty strict, no?

Or I suppose the thieves guild could be "Neutral"... Self policing. Maybe they like that the town goes light on them so they, in turn, keep themselves in check so as to not push the envelope. I REALLY LIKE THIS IDEA but then how is the guild profitable? Gambling Den idea comes to mind... Such a den of iniquity wouldn't be 'right' in the eyes of the church but at least they arent doing anything illegal. But i'm not so sure this church could turn a blind eye on drugs, sex and gambling...

Any more input along 'paternal' priest/mayor and 'Neutral' theives guild ideas?

 

[Bear]

A NG society is, in theory, far less likely to be screwed over by villains and nefarious types than say, a LN or TN society is? Why? One of the first orders of the day in a Good leader's planner calendar is usually: "7 AM - 8 AM. Meeting with Council to discuss better ways to protect people from bad guys." ... ok maybe a little more refined than that.. but a Good government will be going out of its way to identify problem people

I hear you, and you give great points, Clark. Thank you!

I have one query tho: how does this not sound like a 'lawful' society? Generally, laws are passed that are there to protect the the citizens from bad guys... I'm confused.

 

[Umbran]

In a town like that what would the criminal element look like? How well would a thieves guild fare? ...

I imagine that even tho the town is NG, they'd STILL have town guards patrolling the street, no?

I'm confused, how could such a liberal town NOT be taken advantage of?

Being neutral with respect to law and chaos doesn't make you stupid. All it really means is that the Law is not, to them, an end in and of itself. It's only a means to an end. These people have laws and organization, but only in the cases where they think they're really necessary. They have guards. It'll be illegal to steal or assault people, and so on. They simply won't be too rigid in applying the laws they have. Their legal system will tend to have compassion, and the number of outright rules restricting behavior will be fairly low (but there will be some). In this town, if you're starving and you steal some bread, they won't cut your hand off.

The thieves guild won't fare well, but not due to rule of law. That population is only large by D&D standards. The entire population of your town not only won't fill a football statium, but they can rather comfortably all stand on the football field at once (each getting a 4'x4' square to stand in).

They'll have problems because (by the 3e DMG, at least) there's only about 80 or 90 people above 2nd level in the town (and maybe 8 of those are rogues themselves). All the rest are 1st level, and don't have much worth stealing. Also, if they steal anything other than hard currency, there's only those 90 or so people who have enough money to buy stolen merchandise. You're rapidly approaching the point where the guild will try to sell a stolen item to a friend of the victim. Not a tenable position for a guild, unless they've got some oddly lucrative ties with other towns for fencing merchandise.

This town will have a few pickpockets and grifters, but there's not much call to organize.

[edit: a couple spelling errors]

 

[clark411]

Well, it can sound like a Lawful nation to one person, and ethically Neutral to another person.. so I can't really explain how it's definitely Neutral, but I can present my view.

Society, civilization in general.. has laws and unifying institutions (language, oral tradition or schooling, accepted and unaccepted ways of behaving designed around the perpetuation of the culture). A chaotic neutral tribal culture has laws and traditions, the focus of these traditions are simply aligned with a more free lifestyle. A lawful neutral monarchy also has laws and traditions of it's own.. they're just very very different in a number of ways.

Therefore, the presense of law does not necessarily imply Law... the purpose of law, the manner with which it is instituted, and the context of the society it is set in determines if rules or ways of being are Lawful or not. If such wasn't the case, chaotic cultures would defy our understanding of the very word "culture".. no traditions, no rules, no culture... all producing effects that pretty much stamp out anything other than gibbering ninnies (or at least an extremely divergent culture the likes of which we have little record of in history).

In my mind, the style of a nations rules and culture dictates its alignment. If every trial is judged on it's own merits in an elven court, that's pretty darn Chaotic. If every trial is based on very rigid laws, and the person being judged is deemed guilty on very specific procedures, and given a set-in-stone punishment, that's really quite Lawful. If its between these two extremes, it's either neutral or simply a less iconic aspect of Law or Chaos.

 

[Ysgarran]

Do not equate a chaotic or neutral society with a lawless society. They have laws just like any other society, it is just that those laws favor the individual over the larger group. I would also say that the
government would not be as hierarchal as on run by 'lawful' inclined individuals.

If you really want to equate neutral/chaotic with lawlessness then realize that there are always powerfull cultural norms that the citizens adhere to. Perhaps the rights of citizens are enforced by a more vigilante kind of justice.

need to go, perhaps more later,
Ysgarran.