D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

[DracoSuave]

I was thinking more along the lines that 4E reduced the generic benefits of the ability scores. Constitution no longer grants a bonus to hit points on a per hit die basis, so there is no significant benefit if you decide to raise Constitution instead of your primary or secondary ability score. Intelligence no longer grants additional skill points, so raising Intelligence instead of your primary or secondary ability score only benefits Intelligence-based skills. Similarly, Dexterity no longer adds to AC/Reflex exclusively, and Wisdom doesn't add to Will exclusively.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be: I think 4E characters have too many dump stats.

I am uncertain that is a bad thing. In 3.x, most characters had either an 8 strength, or an 8 charisma.

4e characters can have an 8 pop up in any ability, and it doesn't make them absolutely weak, but it does give the characters variety.

The reduction of Constitution from 'THE ONE STAT TO RULE THEM ALL' to 'Kinda useful, but not necessary' isn't a bad thing.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Things that 4e doesn't do well.

1. Anything that isn't "a team of heroic adventurers fight their way to glory"

PCs who want to focus outside combat or PCs who are designed to suck are not done well.

Is that a bad thing? No, not really. That's just what D&D is, and it's always been that way. If you want something else, there are systems like the wuthering heights roleplaying system (where combat is automatically successful if your would-be murderer is crazy enough).

2. Simplicity
PCs who simply want to resolve combat by repeating "I hit it with my sword" are out of luck.

To me, this IS a bad thing. Personally I would have liked it if class at-wills and basic attacks were balanced against each other, OR if classes augmented their basic attack in some way so it was still worth using. It would just have made introducing new players to the game a lot easier.

 

[Somebloke]

In regards to controllers, one of the players in the group I DM plays a wizard straight from the PHB. Since he's started to really get into his character talents I have learned- painfully- never to group too many monsters together and never ever to let them dig in and hold their ground. One stinking cloud later and the party is sitting around laughing while the supposedly fortified garrison or distant mob of archers scramble desperately for new positions. And as for minions....

If I have a complaint it is this- there is far too much of a hp buffer. While Save-or-die was a bit much the threat of a single trap/spell effect/sneak attack seriously injuring a character doesn't really manifest in 4e using the standard damage charts- or rather it manifests after a few rounds of pummelling, usually after the party has started to regroup and plan a counter-strike/bypass method. The threat of imminent danger has been dulled.

 

[jbear]

Multi-Classing: 4E has reintroduced Dual-Classing but it doesn't do Multi-Classing well at all. It's fumbling and pathetic at it, like pick-up lines are to dating.

Scry & Die: Not nearly as common, simple, or reliable and I highly approve of that change.

Bad Ass PC: A single PC isn't especially impressive; there's a good chance they'll lose to a single standard monster. A party is a terrifying murder machine that chews up enemies and spits out giblets but that's a different point.

I'll second the OP's 1 & 2, as well as Badapple's non-grid point. I, too, have found attrition generally easier to evoke in 4E than in prior editions (barring the surgeless healing glut that Divine Power brought to the Cleric).

I can think of a few builds that would stand up well against a standard monster of their level: Dwarven Swarm Druid, Bleak Disciple Assassin, Rageblood Barbarian, Drow Cosmic Sorceror... I'm not even going to mention the Orb Wizard... doh, too late. Actually it'd make an interesting experiment to run. Anyway, I agree with the sentiment that there is no demi-god wizard class destroying enemies with the wrinkle of his brow.

4e doesn't do realistic or full immersion very well. Or at least you have to make more of an effort to achieve it. Lid popping tombs spitting out skeletons from KotSF I'm looking at you. But personally I prefer the 'game' feel. I find it more enjoyable and comfortable personally.

 

[KarinsDad]

I can't agree with you here. A first level character with 2 at-will powers, an encounter, a daily power and a class feature is something I could explain to somebody in maybe 15 minutes.

You might be able to explain it, but that does not mean that the PC is easy to play for some people.

For example, my wife has been playing a Fighter for over 6 months now. She still gets confused between Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority. She also still sometimes forgets to mark foes. And she definitely has problems trying to figure out the best encounter power to use or whether she should use a daily power or not. And as she levels up and gains more items, feats, and powers, it gets a little more confusing for her.

So no, there are no good "starter" classes anymore since nearly all classes have similar numbers of powers and abilities and therefore overall similar complexity. The sole possible exception to this might be the Ranger who uses Twin Strike nearly every single round and that's more because TS is so good that even some encounter powers pale by comparison and do not need to be used often.


On the subject of weaknesses in the game, I think in their effort to simplify the game system, WotC actually made it more complex in some ways.

The most obvious way is conditions. Except for some At Will powers, nearly all powers, both monster and PC, throw some type of condition/effect out on the field. And conditions/effects do not end at the same time. There are 7 basic durations to end a condtion: save, end of target's next turn, beginning of target's next turn, end of user's next turn, beginning of user's next turn, end of encounter or when no longer sustained (or when a creature dies in the case of an aura). And there are other "condition-like" game status' like bloodied which add to this.

So in their effort to make the game faster, they actually made it slower in some ways by adding more bookkeeping.


Another way in which this complexity manifests itself is specialized rules. As an example, Daze. My wife might have her fighter flank an enemy with a Dazed PC ally, thinking she will get Flank and not remembering that dazed creatures cannot flank.

There are a myriad of little rules like this that although they are easier for rules oriented people who visit these boards and will read this opinion, are more difficult for people who just want to show up and have fun and cannot be bothered with reading the books or memorizing obscure rules.

 

[babinro]

From my experience as a DM, my main complaint is that the math seems to be off in the game.

As our group gets into high end paragon, there are frequent monster attacks vs Fort/Reflex/Will that will hit the PC's on a natural 3+. Likewise, my party constantly hit monsters Reflexes with attacks of natural 4+ while missing monsters Fortitude's on natural 14's. AC scaling seems to fit nicely, though is still a little mean. Our Paladin who focuses on AC still tends to get hit by natural 12's quite a bit.

While houserules and DM modifications can help fix these problems, it does add extra work on what is otherwise an extremely easy DMing experience.

I also find that combat tends to go on long. This is only a minor deterrant as combat is also extremely fun and tactical. However, I would like to be able to accomplish more in our 4 hour sessions particularly when they don't happen every week.

Finally I find the level progression to feel slow. While superior to my experiences with 3.5, it still has that lagging feeling to me at many even levels. <Specifically levels 4,8,14,18,24,28> My players are seldom excited to get another feat added to their list as much as another power. I would say levels 7-16 feel like the games sweet spot so far. As for how to fix this, I wouldn't know. Perhaps allowing for certain Racial/Class Features to improve during heroic tier on the 'slow progressing levels'. Much like Paragon Path and Epic Destinies do.

At low levels the combat whittles down to at-wills very quickly. This leads to the concern that at-wills should probably be more powerful and plentiful. Giving all characters a few ranged attack at-wills seems like it should be a standard as well. I see no reason why having 4 at-wills would hurt the game.
Many at-wills come off as uninteresting/lacking in my opinion (Deft Strike, Careful Attack, Piercing Strike). Wizards seems to be learning from this, as more and more splat books are coming out with more interesting at-wills. Things like Chaos Bolt, Swarming Locusts feel very good throughout the game.

 

[KarinsDad]

Finally I find the level progression to feel slow. While superior to my experiences with 3.5, it still has that lagging feeling to me at many even levels. <Specifically levels 4,8,14,18,24,28> My players are seldom excited to get another feat added to their list as much as another power. I would say levels 7-16 feel like the games sweet spot so far. As for how to fix this, I wouldn't know. Perhaps allowing for certain Racial/Class Features to improve during heroic tier on the 'slow progressing levels'. Much like Paragon Path and Epic Destinies do.

One way to fix this without house rules might be to hand out cooler magic items just before (or during) leveling to the slow levels and simple +x items before acquiring the power levels. The player feels like his PC acquired something good around the same time he levels that way (in addition to +1 to hit, +1 defenses, and a feat).

 

[KarinsDad]

In the category of "how does a level feel" department, I noticed that giving 5 players 4 magic items a level seems less satisfying. And, one PC acquires a level+1 item and another acquires a level+4 item. Isn't it cool that the Fighter got a shiny new sword. What did the Rogue get? Nothing. Oh yeah, there is enough gold for two level+2 items, but I've never seen a party chip in enough gold for the Rogue to have an item crafted (mostly because the players do not bother to figure out the parcel system). Meh.

I changed this to one magic item per PC per level and the item is level+2 for everyone.

 

[babinro]

One way to fix this without house rules might be to hand out cooler magic items just before (or during) leveling to the slow levels and simple +x items before acquiring the power levels. The player feels like his PC acquired something good around the same time he levels that way (in addition to +1 to hit, +1 defenses, and a feat).

Great idea. Equipment goes a long way to making the level gain 'feel' special. I've done the same thing you did without thinking about it. I give out magical items to each PC. Though I still vary the levels to them as it gives that randomized feeling. You just have to try and remember not to keep giving out the high level gear to the same one or two PC's. Your system means there's no chance of running into that problem.

 

[N0Man]

4E also doesn't do well in creating player characters that want to be accountants, city engineers, blacksmiths, or fletchers.

However, it works flawlessly for turning NPCs into those things, without actually having to reference any rules or construct them using special classes.