D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sure Avin, but what is the point of a discussion about 4e where the nonsense level is so high that nothing can be meaningfully discussed? At some point people have to drop out of hyperbole mode in order to actually have a discussion (or not and it can just be a flame fest like this thread seems to have turned into).

One of the things you simply cannot do in a discussion like this is really debate things that are entirely matters of opinion. For instance it is absurd to me to say that "4e is uninspiring" but yet that opinion is simply an opinion and there really is no debating it. More than that it really isn't an alterable fact and no amount of talking about it will change the uninspired guy to suddenly be inspired by 4e, its a state of mind and his opinion on that is a fact about him not about the game. Its fine to mention things like that but lets just move on from that sort of thing as there's no point in arguing about it.

Now, more fact based opinions are at least things that can be discussed, like KD's (IMHO overblown) opinion about 4e magic items. Still, there's no real point in debating it endlessly, the facts have been laid out.

Honestly one of the main things I get out of all these discussions is how far the whole concept of playing an RPG has (at least in D&D circles) wandered away from its roots in some sense. I don't know about other old time players but to me an RPG system is just a toolbox you use to tell your story. That was ENTIRELY the attitude in the days of OD&D/1e AD&D. If someone had showed up at a table in those days and started going on about the rules they'd be off the table in no time flat because everyone inherently knew that the "rules" were nothing but a convenience.

Thus I can't really take purely stylistic criticisms of ANY system seriously. Style is up to the people at the table. You want wacky magic items ala OD&D then simply put them in your game, etc. Its YOUR game, so stop stunting your imaginations with rules trivia and make it fun.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't know about other old time players but to me an RPG system is just a toolbox you use to tell your story. That was ENTIRELY the attitude in the days of OD&D/1e AD&D. If someone had showed up at a table in those days and started going on about the rules they'd be off the table in no time flat because everyone inherently knew that the "rules" were nothing but a convenience.

I think that one issue is that the rules are no longer nothing but a convenience. With the vast amount of material (monsters, items, feats, powers, classes), it is more difficult to rip out what you don't want and put in what you do. I remember games where a DM would pull in major rules from 2 or 3 different gaming systems back in the 70s and 80s and I don't think that is as easy to do anymore.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is a topic for 4E players and DM express what they think it doesn't work properly on 4E. People who play it and like it but would change some stuff. You don't need to rush and defend 4E as the Holy Grail like a 4venger... it's not 3E vs 4E here, people may like it but have different opinions than yours.

This.

I am currently DMing two games and playing two games. I enjoy the game system, but I also enjoy discussing suspect elements of it. Course, when people's opinions differ, that's when the swords come out.


Another thing I think that 4E does not do well is economy. Course, I thought 1E through 3E didn't do it well either.

Yes, it's fun to acquire magic items, but when the game system revolves around ever increasing mega-treasures (not necessariliy at one location, but over the span of gaining a single level) starting at a very low level, it again drops the plausibility. A Dragon having a huge treasure, sure. But nearly every set of encounters having big treasure???

If 1 GP = $10 (I actually equate 1 GP = $100, but I'll be conservative for this example), 15th level PCs are finding around $100,000 in each encounter and individual magic items worth $600,000 (I actually consider this $1 million or $6 million). A 30th level item is worth $30 million (or $300 million).

Even at first level to second, the PCs are finding $13,000 to $38,000 ($130,000 to $380,000) depending on whether they keep or sell the magic items worth of stuff and this can be found is the span of a few days or a week.

And this is one of the reasons why magic items sell for 20% of their purchase price. They should actually sell for 80% or more of their purchase price in a plausible world, but if that were to happen, the PCs would be swimming in wealth from found magic items.

This is not a real world 6.5 billion people planet where wealth and the worth of coinage is driven by the labor of 5 billion people. The default setting is a points of light setting where presumably, there might be a few million people worldwide. Generation of wealth to this level shouldn't occur. There are not enough average people to tax based on the cost of normal goods and services. And even items found from long ago should not be worth that much because nobody could afford them.

The magic item economic curve is just way too steep based on what the economics of a typical world (population, cost of goods and services, distances to other markets, etc.) should be. IMO.

Where this causes an issue in the game system is that a 15th level PC can own a lot of lower level potions, wondrous items, etc. Practically any heroic magic item is well within his reach.

If epic level items (not bonus items here, but other items) were really that much better than paragon and paragon were much better than heroic, then no big deal. But the increase in power of these items is typically not that great.

For example, are Winged Boots at level 13 that much worse than a Ring of Flying at level 23? But a PC could sell the Ring of Flying and buy 5 sets of Winged Boots and get to basically do a similar set of functionality 5 times per day instead of 1. No, the functionality is not identical, the Ring is obviously better, but it is close enough that it might be worth it to do this. Better yet, buy/craft 3 sets of Winged Boots and 4 Elixirs of Flying and fly completely for 4 encounters over the next several levels and still fly 3 turns per day instead of 1+ turns per day.

And then, go to Zephyr Boots at level 24 and the level 23 Ring of Flying is suddenly totally obsolete (as are most other options, at least for some classes).

 

[Nifft]

What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

• Outsell 3e.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This.

I am currently DMing two games and playing two games. I enjoy the game system, but I also enjoy discussing suspect elements of it. Course, when people's opinions differ, that's when the swords come out.


Another thing I think that 4E does not do well is economy. Course, I thought 1E through 3E didn't do it well either.

Yes, it's fun to acquire magic items, but when the game system revolves around ever increasing mega-treasures (not necessariliy at one location, but over the span of gaining a single level) starting at a very low level, it again drops the plausibility. A Dragon having a huge treasure, sure. But nearly every set of encounters having big treasure???

If 1 GP = $10 (I actually equate 1 GP = $100, but I'll be conservative for this example), 15th level PCs are finding around $100,000 in each encounter and individual magic items worth $600,000 (I actually consider this $1 million or $6 million). A 30th level item is worth $30 million (or $300 million).

Even at first level to second, the PCs are finding $13,000 to $38,000 ($130,000 to $380,000) depending on whether they keep or sell the magic items worth of stuff and this can be found is the span of a few days or a week.

And this is one of the reasons why magic items sell for 20% of their purchase price. They should actually sell for 80% or more of their purchase price in a plausible world, but if that were to happen, the PCs would be swimming in wealth from found magic items.

This is not a real world 6.5 billion people planet where wealth and the worth of coinage is driven by the labor of 5 billion people. The default setting is a points of light setting where presumably, there might be a few million people worldwide. Generation of wealth to this level shouldn't occur. There are not enough average people to tax based on the cost of normal goods and services. And even items found from long ago should not be worth that much because nobody could afford them.

The magic item economic curve is just way too steep based on what the economics of a typical world (population, cost of goods and services, distances to other markets, etc.) should be. IMO.

Where this causes an issue in the game system is that a 15th level PC can own a lot of lower level potions, wondrous items, etc. Practically any heroic magic item is well within his reach.

If epic level items (not bonus items here, but other items) were really that much better than paragon and paragon were much better than heroic, then no big deal. But the increase in power of these items is typically not that great.

For example, are Winged Boots at level 13 that much worse than a Ring of Flying at level 23? But a PC could sell the Ring of Flying and buy 5 sets of Winged Boots and get to basically do a similar set of functionality 5 times per day instead of 1. No, the functionality is not identical, the Ring is obviously better, but it is close enough that it might be worth it to do this. Better yet, buy/craft 3 sets of Winged Boots and 4 Elixirs of Flying and fly completely for 4 encounters over the next several levels and still fly 3 turns per day instead of 1+ turns per day.

And then, go to Zephyr Boots at level 24 and the level 23 Ring of Flying is suddenly totally obsolete (as are most other options, at least for some classes).

Oh, yes... Economy is not a strength of D&D. And possibly even other RPGs ... (1,000,000 Nuyen Street Samurai? Why didn't you retire?!)

If I were to "fix" it, I would probably dispense with +X magic items and make that inherent. I'd keep item levels, though. It might simply be impossible to use items with a level too high (with a range of 5 points probably - that would mimic the current parcel system results). And all item cost that I can even see justifieable as "for sale" would be reduced to a spot in the first 5 levels. But generally trading with magic items is only of limited attraction. Most of the time you have to trade it in for something else.

 

[Jhaelen]

Well, I think the thread got derailed because of an important difference:

Was the thread supposed to be about things that 4e doesn't do well, that 3e and/or earlier editions _did_ do well?

Or is it about things that 4e doesn't do well, period?

I initially assumed the latter, but apparently at some point it turned into the former. And the former is unfortunately very close to edition war material.

Take the latest point raised: Economy. D&D never had a believable economy. So, yes, it's something that 4E doesn't do well, but it's also something that no edition of D&D ever did well.

 

[Turtlejay]

Ugh.

I realize I replied *after* the main flame war had ignited (no naming names. . .that always starts trouble) but I had hoped that if everyone ignored it we could still have an interesting discussion *around* the fighting. Now it seems this thread will either die due to apathy or devolve to the point where it is locked. Yay?

I don't think most people would argue that 4e is terribly Simulationist. That's not what it was built to do. You can't take something that was balanced for gameplay, like the magic item costs (and largely abstract, too. Sure, things increase in price/level at a predictable rate, but who judges what level things are?) and plug it into real-world economy models and make it work.

Sadly though, in the context of the OP you are right, but I don't think this is as big of a deal breaker as you seem to think.

Strangely, the one thing that I have felt nostalgic about (from 3.5) lately is also one thing I normally don't miss. I was looking through some notes from an old 3.5 campaign I was in, and I have pages of notes that are lists of loot collected, with scrawled hints (light transmutation?! glows?) near some. It is fun to look back and see the process that magic items used to be. A party might collect eight swords from the bandits, and Detect Magic to discover one was magical. You could guess at the property from the aura given off, but until you had the pearl you didn't know for sure what you had. Also, with most games I was in, we collected every scrap of mundane loot to sell. Shopping days were a pain, but fun in their own way.

Oddly, like I said, I don't miss this at all, but I don't really like its replacement either. I know in my own current game, we found some magic items that just sat unclaimed for a few sessions. I don't know if we are too polite, or if the daunting prospect of selling something for a tiny return is too much. . .

I'm having a hard time thinking of things *not* related to magic items and the economy. I reject the complaints that 4e is
- Homogenous
- Grindy
- Too Simple
- Too Complicated
- WoWlike/videogamey

Jay

 

[Herschel]

"Wow! This feat SO matches my character concept. Too bad I didn't know at level 1 that it existed and that I needed a 15 Dex to get it."

Like many RPGs, there is now so much material for 4E (after only 1.5 years) that my players feel inundated.

The other side of this coin is that players now feel that they must at least partially design their PC to mid-Paragon from day one, just so that they don't screw themself out of something they want later on.

This is something I feel was worse in 3E, but yeah, I wish they would have cleaned that part up.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, I think the thread got derailed because of an important difference:

Was the thread supposed to be about things that 4e doesn't do well, that 3e and/or earlier editions _did_ do well?

Or is it about things that 4e doesn't do well, period?

I initially assumed the latter, but apparently at some point it turned into the former. And the former is unfortunately very close to edition war material.

Take the latest point raised: Economy. D&D never had a believable economy. So, yes, it's something that 4E doesn't do well, but it's also something that no edition of D&D ever did well.

I don't understand the point of this post. Shouldn't people be bringing up economy if no edition of D&D ever did it well.

What middle ground between edition war and things that D&D never did well do you want the thread to stay within? You seem to not want people to discuss a wide variety of "things 4E doesn't do well". Should we not discuss it at all???

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't think in general that economy is something most RPGs can really simulate. PCs are supposed to be extraordinary. Wealth is an aspect of life where being really wealthy is the extraordinary condition. The problem is money can solve a lot of problems and if PCs in any game can basically command vast amounts of society's resources then they stop really being adventurers and turn into something else.

Its easy enough in literature to just ignore this kind of problem. The characters are the author's creations and march to whatever tune the writer wants. PCs aren't exactly under the control of the creator of the plot and setting. Give them lots of wealth and they're likely to use it in ways that aren't in keeping with the plot. 4e, like many systems, tends to get around this by making adventuring an absurdly expensive proposition where you have to spend preposterous sums of money to equip yourself. The PCs can now be absurdly wealthy but yet at the same time chained to a constrained budget.

As long as you don't examine the whole thing TOO closely it holds together. OTOH it is pretty easy for players who are determined to derail that system to do so. They could hire large numbers of underlings or buy entire towns for instance. Sure they can no longer afford that top notch magic item and may suffer significantly in their dungeon crawling capacity but they can easily attain all the things that realistically people would want. They can be wealthy and powerful and they can even achieve all sorts of good ends that are mostly not really realistically all that dependent on cleaning out some dungeon. Practically speaking only the agreement of the players and DM to stick to the adventuring theme keeps things on track.

Its possible to imagine wealth systems that you would think WOULD work, but the problem is they basically work by making the PCs impoverished. This can work OK in modernistic settings where even people of fairly ordinary wealth can do a lot with their little money if, like PCs, they don't have the ordinary cares of life to worry about. It doesn't work so well in more fantastic settings. Keeping the PCs fairly impoverished in a 4e faux medieval kind of setting would pretty much mean they will never see more than a few 100 gp at one time and will have expenses that constantly drain all of that away pretty quickly.

Gone is the big dragon horde. Now you also have the problem of how to deal with things like magic items. You can get rid of them or make them so rare and wonderful that you would never even consider disposing of one but that does mean no PCs making their own items or buying anything magical beyond maybe the very occasional potion. Its also hard to enforce. What happens when a PC dies and his comrades get his stuff? They probably can't use it all and realistically it has to represent a pretty substantial amount of wealth regardless of how you deal with that. Even if there is no magic then even mundane equipment becomes a considerable source of excess money. How do you really keep the PCs from using their great prowess to get money either? They can pretty well take what they want and again even mundane stuff they can loot from opponents becomes a pretty significant source of wealth in this kind of situation.

I don't think its IMPOSSIBLE to invent a setting where you could have a fairly realistic economy. The question is whether or not it would be a fun setting to play in. Beyond that would it be the particular kind of game you WANT to play? Its an option but not one that any FRPG I've seen yet has aimed for deliberately. I find it pretty hard to say that 4e has a fault here as its really just a shortcoming of the entire genre. FRPG and realistic economy are just oil and water, you can mix them if you really work at it, but they don't tend to mix well and tend to not stay mixed for long.