D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think 4e handles this problem fairly well. WotC doesn't provide many examples of this now, but a couple dozen Orc Berzerkers are a perfectly reasonable swarm for a 20th level PC.

Personally, I think we've seen limited support for this type of enemy from WotC because WotC is saving that kind of encounter for a mass combat supplement.

-SS

I think running 24 orcs on the board at one time is more like DM nightmare. I'm considered pretty darn fast at running monsters (I can do all the monsters turns in most combats in less than 2 minutes with 8-10 monsters usually). It might not be THAT hard to figure out what to do with 24 orcs (charge of course, what else do orcs do?) but then they'll have various different conditions on them, ongoing damage, etc before long. Doesn't sound fun. 24 minions? I'd have no problem with that, but full monsters, bleh!

 

[Rothe_]

Anyway, the system is dynamic in respect to how it models a specific enemy for the PC's. It changes the types down to minion at higher levels or perhaps makes several of these low level opponents into one "horde moster" swarm. Scale the type of enemy, and keep the level brackets the same (-2 - +5 levels to scale it, no more)

It works just fine like that.

Some people just don't like this kind of dynamics.

Using low level monsters at epic levels is still something that the system does not even want to try to do. I am fine with that.

 

[KarinsDad]

If that's the claim, then I'd say he's correct. Monsters ARE viable threats for more levels.

You might fight a single Solo Orc Myrmidon at level 1, then a pair of Elite Orc Assassins at level 5, followed by a squad of Standard Orc Berserkers at level 9, and finally an entire tribe of Minion Orc Warriors at level 13. That's 13 levels of use right there. So while, no, an individual orc statblock may not be useful for more than a 9 level range (party level +/- 4), orcs remain viable over a great many levels.

I don't think he meant the former. He meant the latter.

And typically, the latter is not really 9 levels. More like 5 or 6 levels. Nobody really throws level -4 opponents against the PCs, do they?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think he meant the former. He meant the latter.

I disagree based on what I recall, but lacking the actual quote it's a bit moot.

And typically, the latter is not really 9 levels. More like 5 or 6 levels. Nobody really throws level -4 opponents against the PCs, do they?

I do. I'd recommend soldiers based on my experiences. You can get two for the price of one at that level. Use the pair to set up a flank and their ability to hit is that of a level +0 skirmisher, which is fine. They're a bit delicate of course, but less so than a minion.

Artillery also work decently at level -4. Obviously they can't take advantage of flanking bonuses, but their delicacy is offset by the fact that they can unleash a barrage from afar.

I don't use them in every encounter, but it's fun to change things up every now and again by using a "super-minion level -4", or see the panic induced by a brute level +4.

 

[Jhaelen]

I do. I'd recommend soldiers based on my experiences. You can get two for the price of one at that level.

That's what I was going to suggest, as well. Low-level soldiers work surprisingly well, especially if combined with leaders that boost their attacks.

 

[Nifft]

That's what I was going to suggest, as well. Low-level soldiers work surprisingly well, especially if combined with leaders that boost their attacks.

Hmmm, I like this idea.

You get to Mark a PC with someone he can kill rather easily. That sounds satisfying.

Cheers, -- N

 

[CovertOps]

I don't think he meant the former. He meant the latter.

And typically, the latter is not really 9 levels. More like 5 or 6 levels. Nobody really throws level -4 opponents against the PCs, do they?

This is what I mean. What I am saying is that you can't just use any n-4 or n+7 creature without carefully considering how it will play and your group. The system scaling just won't handle it (the example of soldiers at L-4 is a perfect example of what I mean noting that other creatures are useless - mostly - at that level). I'm still looking for the quote or podcast so I can get something more definate.

 

[N0Man]

This is what I mean. What I am saying is that you can't just use any n-4 or n+7 creature without carefully considering how it will play and your group. The system scaling just won't handle it (the example of soldiers at L-4 is a perfect example of what I mean noting that other creatures are useless - mostly - at that level). I'm still looking for the quote or podcast so I can get something more definate.

Without knowing the exact quote, or the intent of the quote (or what he was thinking when he said this), it's pretty much impossible to know what was meant.

Personally, with the ease of tweaking monster level on the fly using the easy to use guidelines in the DMG to increase or decrease their levels from -5 to +5, I would say that there certainly are wide windows monsters can be used.

A level 5 monster can be in a tough (but reasonable) encounter for a level 1, tweaked down a few levels for a normal encounter, or tweaked up a few levels for a level 9 or 10 party.

The ease of modding monsters on the fly is one of the system's greatest strengths, in my opinion.