Lurker in the Dark
First Post
Thanee said:
Would you mind elaborating?
What dragon is a realistic challenge?
- Thread starter Lurker in the Dark
- Start date
Would you mind elaborating?
Lurker in the Dark
First Post
Thanks to those explaining the rationales behind dragon CRs - makes sense in a way I guess, but a bit unsatisfying.
Henry
Autoexreginated
If you want a really hard fight, with a risk of a quarter of the party dying, then make him Juvenile; if you want a challenge, with low risk of one PC dying, then make him only Young.
Just keep in mind that the Encounter Level, the EL, is governed both by party prep time, and by dragon preparations. What many people don't think about is that a party with enough clerics to manage its healing and defensive needs (about a 4:1 ratio) will be properly kitted out to deal with massive fire damage and flyby attacks. even a mere resist elements spell will keep a PC in this fight for one or 2 rounds more than he would be otherwise.
Just an aside - a particularly nasty tactic is to find one element that the dragon is immune to, and immerse him in that element. A red dragon half immersed in a pool or lava, or flying in the central shaft of a volcano, will make it very hard for the PC's to deal with, without some sort of fire protection, and will add yet one more source of protection drains that will have to be taken care of. A black Dragon who grabs its victims and grapples them under water will not only gain cover from the other party members, but will also be at an advantage against water breathers - not to mention it is immune to its own breath weapon!
Just keep in mind that the Encounter Level, the EL, is governed both by party prep time, and by dragon preparations. What many people don't think about is that a party with enough clerics to manage its healing and defensive needs (about a 4:1 ratio) will be properly kitted out to deal with massive fire damage and flyby attacks. even a mere resist elements spell will keep a PC in this fight for one or 2 rounds more than he would be otherwise.
Just an aside - a particularly nasty tactic is to find one element that the dragon is immune to, and immerse him in that element. A red dragon half immersed in a pool or lava, or flying in the central shaft of a volcano, will make it very hard for the PC's to deal with, without some sort of fire protection, and will add yet one more source of protection drains that will have to be taken care of. A black Dragon who grabs its victims and grapples them under water will not only gain cover from the other party members, but will also be at an advantage against water breathers - not to mention it is immune to its own breath weapon!
Grayswandir
Just a lurker
With five 7th-level characters, two 6ths, and a 4th-level cohort, you've got very nearly a 9th-level party (equivalent). A juvenile red dragon is only CR 9. Personally, I'd be worried about underwhelming them. A young adult seems like a better choice to me. On the other hand, I'm used to DMing for PCs with very high stats and hp, so I'm probably a little biased.
By the way, I'm currently in the middle of statting up the "typical" feat, skill, and spell selection for dragons of various ages and types. I've got Black, Blue, and Green done and am working on Red even now. It's an HTML file (in tables), so I can't effectively post it here, but if you're interested I might be able to post it on my site and provide a link (but I have no FTP access currently, so I might not be able).
By the way, I'm currently in the middle of statting up the "typical" feat, skill, and spell selection for dragons of various ages and types. I've got Black, Blue, and Green done and am working on Red even now. It's an HTML file (in tables), so I can't effectively post it here, but if you're interested I might be able to post it on my site and provide a link (but I have no FTP access currently, so I might not be able).
Grayswandir
Just a lurker
I just did a little math, and as near as I can figure, your party level comes out to about 8.5. Keeping in mind that dragons are a bit tougher than their CR would indicate, a juvenile red (CR 9) should prove somewhat tougher than a normal random encounter, but nothing they can't handle. A young adult (CR 12), on the other hand, is probably a little tough for them. I'd take a juvenile and advance it by one or two hit dice for a good boss fight.
Bass Puppet
First Post
Lurker in the Dark said:
Well since the Party DOESN'T know that they are going up against a Dragon and the Challenge raiting in the book is based upon the Knowledge of the Party knowing they are going up against a Dragon. I would have to say go with a Young, especially if there are going to be other obstacles (Minions, Enviornment, etc.) the party must face before, after, or durring the Confrontation.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Maybe we're just wusses in the game I play in, but we decided that dragons should all have a CR of 2 above what's listed in the books, to accurately reflect the trouble they cause.
We recently, as a party of 4 6th-level characters plus a 4th-level cohort, went unprepared against a CR5 dragon. Notwithstanding the fact that the paladin's mount was flying (yay potions), the dragon killed one character in the first round (said paladin) and forced the rest of us to flee with tails between legs.
We leveled up and went back, this time prepared with over 1200 GP worth of scrolls (all buffing and protection spells). This time, the dragon survived for about 2 rounds.
The designers say that IF you're prepared for the fight, you shoudl be able to take on a dragon of about the right CR. However, that's not what CR is supposed to represent. CR is supposed to represent a challenge that uses up about 25% of the party's resources -- hit points, spells, consumable magic items, etc.
Would anyone argue that your average 9th-level party could take on 4 juvenile red dragons before resting? Especially if the dragons are played intelligently? Of course not.
That's why we bump up the CR for dragons.
Daniel
We recently, as a party of 4 6th-level characters plus a 4th-level cohort, went unprepared against a CR5 dragon. Notwithstanding the fact that the paladin's mount was flying (yay potions), the dragon killed one character in the first round (said paladin) and forced the rest of us to flee with tails between legs.
We leveled up and went back, this time prepared with over 1200 GP worth of scrolls (all buffing and protection spells). This time, the dragon survived for about 2 rounds.
The designers say that IF you're prepared for the fight, you shoudl be able to take on a dragon of about the right CR. However, that's not what CR is supposed to represent. CR is supposed to represent a challenge that uses up about 25% of the party's resources -- hit points, spells, consumable magic items, etc.
Would anyone argue that your average 9th-level party could take on 4 juvenile red dragons before resting? Especially if the dragons are played intelligently? Of course not.
That's why we bump up the CR for dragons.
Daniel
Simplicity
Explorer
Grayswandir said:
I've been in this EXACT situation before... 7th-8th level party,
large number of people. Do I go with the juvenile red or one up?
Having played it, let me just say that a juvenile red dragon is pure destruction. Do NOT go with the next one up, or it is highly likely that you will slaughter everyone.
One full attack by a juvenile red dragon will turn just about anybody in your party into hamburger. Remember that any red dragon worth his snuff will be using cleave and/or power attack liberally. Compared to the dragon attack bonus, player ACs are puny.
Smart players will spread out enough so that the breath weapon won't be useful. Which, will only help because they'll be so spread out that they can't heal each other without getting attacks
of opportunity. Those who go down will stay down, or pull others with them.
Pielorinho said:
I totally agree with this. A bump of +2 seems about right. I don't understand why the exception was made for dragons. As was said, CR represents a fight that will tax 25 percent of a party's resources. I think, though, that once a DM runs a dragon encounter or two, he will understand that they are tougher than their CR suggests, and it shouldn't be much of a problem gauging the right CR.
I agree, though, that a Juvenile will be tough, which is the point. I definitely wouldn't go any higher. As I originally said, any dragon can be dangerous in the right situation, and it's quite possible that the Juvenile will smoke the party if they come stumbling into the lair. One would hope they'd buff up first.
Laters,
-John-
Lurker in the Dark
First Post
Many Thanks
Very helpful info, everyone. I appreciate it.
Looks like a "young red" is the way I'll go this time, given the relative difficulty of the lair and the likely level of preparedness of the party, and the fact that this will be their first ever dragon encounter.
Very helpful info, everyone. I appreciate it.
Looks like a "young red" is the way I'll go this time, given the relative difficulty of the lair and the likely level of preparedness of the party, and the fact that this will be their first ever dragon encounter.
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