What dragon is a realistic challenge?

[Lurker in the Dark]

(/Lurk)
Hi all.

The party will likely be facing its first dragon (a male red) in the next adventure. I'd like some opinions on what age would be a realistic challenge for them.

The party:

Rogue3/Wiz4
Cleric7 (With a Cleric4 follower)
Druid7
Fighter7
Barbarian6 (more of a finesse barbarian than a basher)
Fighter6
Fighter3/Ranger4

They have magic items of about standard value, though not much in the way of direct-damage dealing items.

I have the dragon's personality and history set, though its age is flexible. The lair is well-trapped. The dragon will probably be a surprise, though the party will likely know that "something tough and scary" is inside. On the other hand, the dragon, as yet, has no special knowledge of the party.

How old, and how tough should I make him?

 

[Echoes]

I'd go with a juvenille Red, depending on how hard you're going to make the lead up to the encounter be. You've got a large party, and a couple of healers included, so I think that a CR 9 should be a very fair fight. I'm not sure, its just my gut reaction. No matter what age you make the dragon, I think that the most important thing to do is use all abilities to the maximum. Flying, breath weapon at every oppourtunity, etc. Hell, a CR 7 dragon could be quite hard given the right situation. Really, any age could.

But if it's going to be a fairly straightforward fight, I think a juvenille Red would be good. But I might be wrong.

(Edit: Eek, I was looking at the stats for a White Dragon. Damn my lack of sleep.)

 

[Crothian]

I'd go with a Juvenile. No DR, fear, or SR yet. Those can really hurt a party fast if they roll bad or are ill prepared. The AC isn't to bad and the hit points are good, but you do have 7 PCs. Do you expect characters to die in this battle? The breathe weapon is really good and could kill off a weakened fighter or spellcaster fast. That and its attack will make it so it rarely misses.

I think this is good to challenge 7 PCs of about 7th level. It will be hard, but not impossible. That's the way I see all Dragon encounters.

 

[Lurker in the Dark]

Thanks to both of you

If one or two die because its a good fight, then that's fine. I'm not going in with the "If i don't kill at least one person tonight, I'm not doing my job!" mindset, though, and I definitely don't want to wipe out the entire party.

 

[Echoes]

On a related note:

I was wondering about this, as long as the thread's related to dragon CRs. This might belong in the rules forum, but...

It's struck me as I've DMed that dragon encounters are usually harder than encounters of equal CR. For example, a CR 5 dragon is a helluva lot harder to fight than, say, a level five wizard, or a group that's made up of characters equalling CR 5. I don't know why that is, but it seemed a little unbalanced to me. Granted, for example, both the wizard and dragon could fly (given that the wizard has fly) and the wizard could cast a fireball (given that he has fireball) but a dragon could fly indefinitely and rain down fiery death every few rounds.

Hmm. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that. Maybe I should make it a seperate post.

Laters,
-John-

 

[Lurker in the Dark]

agreed

This is actually why I posted my question. I create appropriate challenges for the parts using CRs as a guide all the time, but when I did that for the dragon encounter, and loked at the resulting dragon, it just looked significantly harder than other encounters (not that that's a bad thing - dragons should be tough, but it feels a bit like dragon CR's "got the shaft," so to speak)

 

[Allister]

It should be noted that the DRAGON CRs, as said by Ryan D., are assumed to represent the perfect situation for the PCs. That is, the PCs know that they are going to fight a Dragon and have suitably prepared for this.

A juvenile dragon will smoke this 7 person party pretty damn easily if it gets off the ground. However, since the dragon is going to be limited to the ground a juvenile might not be that bad an idea. Be careful though, as dragons, more than any other creature can easily destroy a party thanks to critical attacks.

A dragon, even without criticals, using a full attack option can probably wipe the floor with any PC of the same level.

 

[Thanee]

If one or two die because its a good fight, then that's fine. I'm not going in with the "If i don't kill at least one person tonight, I'm not doing my job!" mindset, though, and I definitely don't want to wipe out the entire party.

I don't think this mindset is a good one.

Make it a challenge, if the dice fall in a way that someone dies, don't pull punches, but also do not specifically try to kill someone. This is just wrong IMHO.

To your question: I also think a juvenile red dragon would an appropriate challenge to this party (assuming standard worth in equipment for their level). The party seems to be geared heavily towards combat, so they should be able to defeat the dragon. A fiery breath attacks as a warm-up exercise might be a good start, of course. This will probably give them an immediate feeling of a very serious situation.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ysgarran]

Re: On a related note:

Hmm. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on that. Maybe I should make it a seperate post.

This has been mentioned before. I believe a little 'meta' thinking into the challange rating. The reasoning went something along these lines:

Everyone knows dragons are supposed to be very difficult. When a party of characters meet one they will pull out the big guns and not hold anything back. That being the case, we better adjust the challange rating accordingly.

Lurker:
Are the stats of your characters in line, i.e. about average? If the character's stats are above normal you will need to adjust a bit for that.

 

[EOL]

The whole topic of Dragon Challenge Ratings has been discussed before and the general consensus is that they are probably a little low. A couple of reasons have been suggested:

1- Dragons are so fearsome and destructive that the PC's will probably know because of the dragon's reputation that they are about to fight a dragon. Because of this they will be prepared. (Not applicable under the scenerio we're describing.)

2- Dragons are THE creature in Dungeons and Dragons and as such they should be tough, tougher than an equivilant monster of the same CR

In any event I would suggest a young red give him a few more hitpoints if you feel like it, but I would not recommend a juvenile. If played with any sort of intelligence it would easily kill most if not all of the party you describe.