What ECl would you make this Race...Help appreciated

[Chacal]

Do you happen to have the link for his method ?

Chacal

Nevermind,
I managed to overcome my lazyness and just googled it


http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html



Chacal

 

[Knight Otu]

Nevermind,
I managed to overcome my lazyness and just googled it


http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html

That's just an automated version of it. Look here for the version that has the actual numbers he came up with for all factors.

Personally, looking at Soldarin's numbers, UK's numbers and comparing to the standard Minotaur, I'd say a +2 level adjustment (ECL 6 for a classless Hratha, ECL 7 for a Hratha with 1 class level) should be fitting, though a +3 LA might be warranted.

 

[Uriel]

I had them arbitrarily at +5ECL , but that was almost two years ago, before Savage Species came along.
They do have Low-Light Vision. I had left that out.
ECL +6 looks fair.

If you folks don't mind, i'd like more input, as I prefer getting many opinions.

The Hratha,along with twp more Lesanatha (Beast-Races) were created as servitor races against the forces of Evil yadda,yadda....many Eons ago.
the other two follow (in stat only for, the text is lengthy).

The Ahrn-Ahm (Wolfen)
STR+6
DEX 0
CON +2
INT -2
WIS+2
CHA-2

+4 to Move Silently,
+2 to Hide,
+2 Spot
+2 Listen
+2 to Survival
+2 to Prof-Hunter
+2 d8 Hit Dice (With BaB based on them)
Large
Darkvision 60'
Bite damage 1D8
Claws 1D6
Bonus Feat: Scent
Bonus Feat: Multi-Attack (Natural Attacks)
Favored Class: Druid


Campaign Specific, ignore, as each race has mods with each of the other 30 races)+2 dealings with Hratha, Shesanar, Tylnech, and either Ghu Fitch or Vrown-Etal


****************************************************



Shesanar (Centaurs)

STR +2
DEX 0
CON +4
INT -2
WIS +2
CHA -2

+2 to Move Silently (grasses and woodlands)
+2 Hide (grasslands or Woodlands)
+2 to one Craft
+2 to Perform (choose one)
+4 to Jump
+2 d8 Hit Dice (with BaB based on them)
Low-Light Vision
Large Creature
Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus Battle Axe, Lance or Long Composite Bow
Bonus Feat: Endurance
Favored Class: Ranger

(As above for inter-racial dealings)
+2 dealings with Ahrn Ahm, Hratha or Urlings-Nomad.
Shesanar (Centaur)Shesanar (Centaur)

 

[Uriel]

Hello?
I had these two each at +3, but that was before SS, as I said. Guess I'll go through the and hash them out myself.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, let's try the Soldarin method again:

AHRN-AHM
Hit dice (2, giant?): +1.0
(You said they gain the BAB from these as usual, but you didn't say which type of HD they were. Monstrous Humanoid is d10, so it'd have to be Giant or Humanoid or something...)
Size (Large): +1.0
Physical stats (+8): +0.8
Mental stats (-2): -0.1
Skill bonuses (+14): +0.7
(unless you meant that these are what he'll spend his Giant HD skill points on?)
Scent: +0.2
Bonus Feat: +0.2?
Natural attacks: +0.2 (probably should be higher)

Total: 4.0, so ECL +4, which means LA +2. If the skill points are from the HD then it'd be ECL +3.

You just can't underestimate how much being Large is worth. An extra 5' of reach with every weapon is HUGE.
The fact that he's Favored Class: Druid makes it a little better, but I'd still rather play him as a straight Ranger or Barbarian instead. He wouldn't do well as a straight Druid; a loss of 3 or 4 caster levels puts him way behind the curve, and wildshaping would mean giving up his great physical stats. I've played a race with Favored Class: None, it's not that bad to be forced to single-class, which is what'd happen here.

SHESANAR
Again, the same issues.
HD (2, giant): +1.0
Size (Large): +1.0
Physical stats (+6): +0.6
Mental stats (-2): -0.1
Skill bonuses (+8 general, +4 conditional): +0.5
Bonus Feats (2, but one of them is Endurance, which not only stinks, it's gained by all Rangers at level 3 now so it overlaps with your favored class): +0.2

Total: +3.2, so clearly ECL 3.

The other, more general comment is a flavor one. If the Shesanar are Centaurs, add something related to that. Maybe they can't wear normal armors, and instead use something closer to the barding rules. But, since their humanoid parts are human-sized, they don't get the extra reach and use medium-sized weapons.

 

[Leopold]

I agree with the above. Wolfen are a solid 4 and could ALMOST be a 5 but 4 is good area.

the centaurs for me came up as a 3.7. If i broke it down with SS it would be much higher

Size:+1
Stats:+1
Skills:+1
Bonus feats:+1
Hit Dice: +2
=
+6

I would say a 4 for this as well would do your troops justice.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Size:+1
Stats:+1
Skills:+1
Bonus feats:+1
Hit Dice: +2

And this is why I'd never, ever use SS to calculate ECL. There's no fractional division, even in places where there obviously should be. +1 for the Bonus Feats is way too large, because we're talking about at most two feats, at least one of which is fairly weak.
Now, I'm not saying Soldarin's method is divinely inspired or anything, but it's a heck of a lot better than any of the more "official" methods.

Then there's the HD thing. SS says 1 HD = +1 ECL. SS also says 1 level of a PC class = +1 ECL. A Giant HD is seriously inferior to a Fighter level (d8 HD and 3/4 BAB), and yet they both give the same ECL boost? That's why I use the Soldarin method, where 1 HD gives anything from 0.4 to 0.7 depending on its type (Outsider and Dragon give great benefits, while Humanoid gives terrible ones).

This came up in the Half-Ogre threads that have popped up over the years. SS says Half-Ogres are ECL +1. Most people agreed that's too strong (being Large would be +1 in its own right, let alone the physical stat boost they get), so the two most popular solutions were:
> Bump it to ECL +2 outright, or
> Add two Giant HD (leaving it at LA +1) and call it ECL +3. (Ogres are 4 Giant HD and LA+2, so the logic was that Half-Ogres should be half that)
Under Soldarin's system these are equivalent. Under Savage Species they're not.

Anyway, back to the original point, I think you should tweak these a bit more, adding some more flavor. Give the Centaurs a 50' or 60' base movement (horse speed) instead of the 40' they'd have for being Large. Instead of Weapon Focus, just give them proficiency in those weapons (like an Elf).
Give the wolfmen a little Natural Armor or DR 1/silver or something. Instead of Scent, give them the Minor Scent ability (it's like Scent, but less range and higher DCs) with the ability to upgrade to full Scent using a Feat.
And so on.

 

[Uriel]

Well, let's try the Soldarin method again:

AHRN-AHM
Hit dice (2, giant?): +1.0
(You said they gain the BAB from these as usual, but you didn't say which type of HD they were. Monstrous Humanoid is d10, so it'd have to be Giant or Humanoid or something...)

Well, I had figured D 8s, but they are Monsterous humanoids, so D10 might be in order

Size (Large): +1.0
Physical stats (+8): +0.8
Mental stats (-2): -0.1
Skill bonuses (+14): +0.7
(unless you meant that these are what he'll spend his Giant HD skill points on?)
No, I gave each race skill bonuses just as the PH races have them, though truth be told, I changed them all as well, though in a very minor (more flavor-oriented) way
Scent: +0.2
Bonus Feat: +0.2?
Natural attacks: +0.2 (probably should be higher)

Total: 4.0, so ECL +4, which means LA +2. If the skill points are from the HD then it'd be ECL +3.

You just can't underestimate how much being Large is worth. An extra 5' of reach with every weapon is HUGE.
The fact that he's Favored Class: Druid makes it a little better, but I'd still rather play him as a straight Ranger or Barbarian instead. He wouldn't do well as a straight Druid; a loss of 3 or 4 caster levels puts him way behind the curve, and wildshaping would mean giving up his great physical stats. I've played a race with Favored Class: None, it's not that bad to be forced to single-class, which is what'd happen here.
They are the stewards of the Sidhe, whom I have set up as quasi Gods on hiatus, thoug recently returned to the World to fight their ancient Nemesis, the Fymiori (I grifed names from Celtic Mythology, though not their actual representation, though Celtic Mythology is a sketchy and vague one, actually...), Anyways, I pictured most of them being Druid or Druid/Rangers, since they hunt the Tainted races touched by the Fymiori befre their banishment ages past. Is their an ECL mod for giving 2 favored classes?

SHESANAR
Again, the same issues.
HD (2, giant): +1.0
Size (Large): +1.0
Physical stats (+6): +0.6
Mental stats (-2): -0.1
Skill bonuses (+8 general, +4 conditional): +0.5
Bonus Feats (2, but one of them is Endurance, which not only stinks, it's gained by all Rangers at level 3 now so it overlaps with your favored class): +0.2

Total: +3.2, so clearly ECL 3.

The other, more general comment is a flavor one. If the Shesanar are Centaurs, add something related to that. Maybe they can't wear normal armors, and instead use something closer to the barding rules. But, since their humanoid parts are human-sized, they don't get the extra reach and use medium-sized weapons.

Yep, their people-parts are man-sized, so no extra reach. I could include extra lifting/hauling, similar to a horse, as well as notes on lance charges etc... Perhaps the Barding limitations (armr costs X2or something) could offset this.

Thanks, -Uriel

 

[Uriel]

Anyway, back to the original point, I think you should tweak these a bit more, adding some more flavor. Give the Centaurs a 50' or 60' base movement (horse speed) instead of the 40' they'd have for being Large. Instead of Weapon Focus, just give them proficiency in those weapons (like an Elf).
Give the wolfmen a little Natural Armor or DR 1/silver or something. Instead of Scent, give them the Minor Scent ability (it's like Scent, but less range and higher DCs) with the ability to upgrade to full Scent using a Feat.
And so on.

Darn, I hadn't posted their move, which is 50'.
I think (with 3.5) I will give them familiarity/proficiency with the weapons, similar to an elf, good idea, thanks.
The Wolfen aren't Werewolves (they hunt them down in fact) so no silver issue.
I could give them a +2NA and have a look at the Minor Scent, perhaps with it upgrading to Scent upon them attaining their majority, a Level etc...