What flavor does your campaign have?

I think you're being cynical. Seriously, I find Dunsany and Lovecraft and Tolkien and Howard to be *packed* with the sort of flavor I prefer in a story. OTOH, a lot of modern novels I pick up are mediocre at best... even the bestsellers. I know *someone* must like them but personally I usually like the older stuff better.
Well, I suppose that pioneers often treat their subject with more free reign than those following them, because the boundaries aren't as well defined.
I don't really consider that highbrow though... Howard and Lovecraft were *pulp* authors -- the very definition of lowbrow in their day. It's just a matter of taste.
Yep. But they're now oldschool, hindsight shows that they were pioneers on top of that, and they're somewhat more obscure in this day than Tolkien, Eddings or Jordan, sorting out the more recent or casual fantasy fans from those who've been paying attention for some time. That you can see the influence of Moorcock, Vance etc. in D&D fairly strongly further reinforces their "respect factor" among players of the game, I'd say - on top of any other respect they are worthy of, of course.

Lovecraft, especially, seems to have come to represent a panoply of things to the RPG community in particular (and to the horror community as well, perhaps) that extend far beyond the stories he wrote, as if others dug the theme, picked up the ball and ran with it to an extent that is perhaps only rivalled or exceeded by Tolkien. Howard, too, set up such strong themes rolling in Hyboria that a bunch of other authors were able to carry on writing Conan in his stead. I respect these things. However, despite all this I sometimes think their names come up slightly too often, as if they're there to lend credibility to something or someone - but as you say, and I suspected, this is probably just me being a bit cynical.
I'm not saying that I'm not influenced by anything modern, of course! There have been some very cool movies, novels, and games, But in the end, I prefer the old fashioned feel, both in literature and in my games. I think that's why I continue to like older editions of D&D -- 3E has a very modern/edgy (dare I say "trendy"?) feel to it IMO and captures modern fiction well, while OD&D captured the literature that was current 30 years ago. The older stuff is less edgy and dark, and more light and fairy-ish, less complex shades of grey and more simplistic bold bright colors. If you know what I mean... it's hard to explain.
Erol Otis as opposed to Todd Lockwood, for instance. :)
But yes, Moorcock and Tolkien and Howard and Dunsay and Vance is EXACTLY what I want my game to be like, with no traces of Xena or Buffy or Robert Jordan and definitely no Planescape. But that's just me. It's not that they don't have anything to offer, they just aren't my preference.
I've read a bit of each, but not for a long time, so will express what I think they stand for as of now...

The styles of Moorcock and Tolkien don't really mix very well, if you believe Moorcock - he complains that Tolkien (like C.S. Lewis) is forever going "there there, there's danger but in the end the hobbits will be alright", which is almost the antithesis of the flavour his work has. I've heard him called dark fantasy before, but not in the horror sense - Elric sort of means well, but everything goes to pot anyway.

I find that Howard is good with action scenes and in portraying heroics in general. In these respects I think he has something in common with Salvatore (who does great fight scenes) and Gemmell (who portrays strongly defined heroes). His short stories often seem, to me, like D&D done "monster lite", with savages and snake cults in place of goblins and yuan-ti. A source of amusement for me is in seeing what weapon Conan will pick up and use for a story or two next.

I read some of The King of Elfland's Daughter, and the main thing I remember about it is the massive and evocative vocabulary Lord Dunsany must have had, using words that haven't seen much currency for a century or so. He's the man when it comes to describing hedgerows in spring. I don't think I got to the end of that book, though - maybe things were moving too slowly?

Leiber seems to be a strong influence too, because when Gygax does write, his characters and their hijinks seem to come out rather Leiberesque - despite his protestations to the contrary in Dragon. Again with the Tolkien influences in the game (e.g. Balor = Balrog) despite his protests (in Dragon, again) that he's not as much of an influence as everyone thinks - which might very well be true, because Tolkien generally gets big-noted a lot for all things fantasy.

Despite all this, I think the flavour of D&D derived from fiction is mashed together into the D&D "chicken" flavour pointed out earlier in this thread. To really look to the heart of oldschool D&D, I think that you have to consider Arneson's dungeon of Blackmoor Castle, the Chainmail heroes wandering through it, the monster mash that filled it, and the loot they carted out. I fail to see that theme reflected very strongly in fiction as a central theme, so you might even call it the heart of D&D - and although it is a theme that can be departed from, there are many stylistic variations on it. Diablo programmers coined it; to paraphrase them, their goal was to "Let the player kill something, then reward them for it." Perhaps that's the distilled essence of oldschool D&D, and a theme commented on by Greg Costikyan's Violence political-comment-as-RPG RPG - put it into a contemporary rather than fantasy context, and the theme becomes abomination rather than escapism!

You cite Planescape as new school, which is something I'll pay - it seems a long way from the dungeon, but a logical extension of it nonetheless. It seems fitting that one of the setting's creators - Monte Cook - has set up his Ptolus campaign with a very interesting idea - as a world based around the result of what D&D and it's rules imply. This seems to me to be a very postmodern idea for D&D, given that the usual formula seems to be to take a generic swords & sorcery fantasy default, clog it with D&D monsters and mores (such as "thieve's guilds" and "dungeons"), and fall back on vague modern anachronisms of medieval europe when in doubt. To come from the approach of interpreting what the rules literally imply with regards to the molding of a setting is to come full circle - an acknowledgement of the D&D flavour and the rules that support it being present, and carrying with them an atmosphere and culture of their own.

Good luck with oldschool flavour. Personally, I find it in back issues of Dungeon, but can understand using older fantasy fiction as a basis for overall flavour - although unless you're careful, it will probably have to compete with the default D&D "chicken" flavour.
 

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Well, I suppose that pioneers often treat their subject with more free reign than those following them, because the boundaries aren't as well defined.

And they're only known as pioneers because others eventually decided to follow them.

Howard, too, set up such strong themes rolling in Hyboria that a bunch of other authors were able to carry on writing Conan in his stead.

Ick. Don't get me started on terrible pastiches...

Erol Otis as opposed to Todd Lockwood, for instance. :)

You know, the art has a huge effect on the tone of a book -- and thus on the game, I'd assume. I still remember that troll winding up the yarn trail left by the adventurers...

The styles of Moorcock and Tolkien don't really mix very well...

Exactly, and that's one of the odd things about D&D. Those two are both huge influences -- even if Gygax didn't particularly like Tolkien.

I find that Howard is good with action scenes and in portraying heroics in general.

I don't see Conan as heroic, per se -- at least not as written by Howard. He's certainly not a namby-pamby good guy in the 50's western "white hat" mold.

In these respects I think he has something in common with Salvatore (who does great fight scenes) and Gemmell (who portrays strongly defined heroes).

Ick.

His short stories often seem, to me, like D&D done "monster lite", with savages and snake cults in place of goblins and yuan-ti.

That's true. And there are very few good wizards/priests.

A source of amusement for me is in seeing what weapon Conan will pick up and use for a story or two next.

Eh?

I read some of The King of Elfland's Daughter, and the main thing I remember about it is the massive and evocative vocabulary Lord Dunsany must have had, using words that haven't seen much currency for a century or so. He's the man when it comes to describing hedgerows in spring.

LOL! :)

I don't think I got to the end of that book, though - maybe things were moving too slowly?

Dunsany's writing can be very dreamy -- very Lovecraft, but not dark.

Leiber seems to be a strong influence too, because when Gygax does write, his characters and their hijinks seem to come out rather Leiberesque - despite his protestations to the contrary in Dragon.

Vance's work is even more full of zany hijinks. Although everyone discussing D&D tends to know Vance as the origin of "Vancian" magic ("fire and forget"), his stories of Cugel the Clever are full of scheming chicanery -- lots of Bluff checks.

Again with the Tolkien influences in the game (e.g. Balor = Balrog) despite his protests (in Dragon, again) that he's not as much of an influence as everyone thinks - which might very well be true, because Tolkien generally gets big-noted a lot for all things fantasy.

The greatest Tolkien impact has to be the concept of character races -- having non-human PCs at all, and especially warrior Dwarves, magical warrior Elves, Hobbits (now Halflings), Half-Orcs, etc. -- and the expectation of a mixed-race, mixed-class party, a la the fellowship of the ring.

Despite all this, I think the flavour of D&D derived from fiction is mashed together into the D&D "chicken" flavour pointed out earlier in this thread.

Absolutely -- but you can pare down the number of clashing elements in your own game to acheive a particular flavor. If you don't like chicken, that is.
 
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You know, the art has a huge effect on the tone of a book -- and thus on the game, I'd assume. I still remember that troll winding up the yarn trail left by the adventurers...
Yeah, I adore that picture too. I remember looking into the black socket of the troll in profile and trying to guess what it was thinking.

Lockwood is, I think, my favourite 3E artist, and his work is gorgeous - especially in the FRCS. Interestingly, we were going over the 3E concept art, and a lot of it seems more lively than the finals. I assume that this is the "demo tape" phenomenon, whereby bands find that their demo tapes have more life or better takes than the final production. I also feel that the computer colouring saps some of the life out of the sketches in some cases.
Exactly, and that's one of the odd things about D&D. Those two are both huge influences -- even if Gygax didn't particularly like Tolkien.
Most people don't make a song and dance about chaos in their campaigns, so the alignment axis - when removed from context - begins to make a bit less sense. Good and Evil are usually depicted as primal forces, but not Law and Chaos.
I don't see Conan as heroic, per se -- at least not as written by Howard. He's certainly not a namby-pamby good guy in the 50's western "white hat" mold.
True, he's somewhat more of a soldier of fortune and a rogue than a true hero, but if memory serves he occasionally goes into semi-selfless heroics.
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In these respects I think he has something in common with Salvatore (who does great fight scenes) and Gemmell (who portrays strongly defined heroes).
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Ick.
Perhaps looking at Salvatore in the light of being something of a modern pulp fantasy author puts them on more equal ground for comparison?
And there are very few good wizards/priests.
Yes, and they seem closer to D&D sorcerors with magic from the gods than they are to D&D clerics.
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A source of amusement for me is in seeing what weapon Conan will pick up and use for a story or two next.
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Eh?
Well, from memory Conan picks up a sabre, or a long dagger, or an axe or something, uses it for two or three stories, and then either loses it or finds something better. He definitely had all the martial weapon proficiencies. :)
 

SHARK said:
Greetings!

Well, I suppose I must present a brief list of some of the influences in my campaign. I think the flavour is some rich blending of them all.:) To wit--

Clip - long list of sources...

Well, take all of that, blend carefully in various ways, and that is probably the flavour!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am disappointed in you Shark, where's the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Elder Eddas? Surely you haven't left them out...

Similiarly, I haven't seen anyone admit that their games all come out of the Three Core Books, and NOT from their extensive trips to the library...but sure, whatever...
 

Oracular Vision said:
Similiarly, I haven't seen anyone admit that their games all come out of the Three Core Books, and NOT from their extensive trips to the library...but sure, whatever...

You have to admit though, it makes a change from yet another post-your-stats thread where everyone has Int 17.
 

Oracular Vision said:

Similiarly, I haven't seen anyone admit that their games all come out of the Three Core Books, and NOT from their extensive trips to the library...but sure, whatever...

Well, to be honest, it's not as if there's much to draw upon in the main 3 books for campaign inspiration. Sure, there're all the mechanics you'l need to play the game, but when it comes to world-building they're hardly massive influences.
 

But listen to that line carefully next time you see the movie...

Next time I see the movie? I don't have to go back there, do I? I couldn't take it!

Speaking of Attack of the Clones, I haven't noticed anyone mentioning Star Wars as an inspiration for their campaign.
 

Re: For what it's worth...

Dinotopia is another place from whence I draw themes and imagery. Other than that, I would say the combat tends to follow anime themes, notably Fist of the North Star, Ninja Scroll, Princess Moninoke (a classic), and a hint of Vampire Hunter D in there.

"Aaiiiii-ya-da-d-d-d-d-duh! Your apatosaur is already dead." Hmm...Dinotopia plus Fist of the North Star seems...eclectic.
 

Sure, there're all the mechanics you'l need to play the game, but when it comes to world-building they're hardly massive influences.
I refer you to the "D&D chicken flavour" earlier in this thread - the core books do indeed suggest worldbuilding influences, such as scattering dungeons and monsters around the landscape, the existence of armored priests called "clerics", the seperation of divine and arcane magic, the default magic items PCs are liable to find and spells they're liable to use etc. etc. These do provide a worldbuilding baseline - one complete enough that players usually know what to expect from a generic D&D world.

Then there are the D&D culture factors that worldbuilding DMs often take for granted, such as the idea of getting healing at a temple, or that a city will probably have a thieve's guild.

We generally see at least some of these influences as part and parcel of playing D&D, so it's easy to forget how much worldbuilding they do for you, and that it's one of the primary reasons why there's less "low level" worldbuilding work to do with D&D if you don't want to, than if you were worldbuilding for an RPG which doesn't make many of these assumptions, like Fudge.
 
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Not only that, the core books hardly exist in a vacuum. They may not offer too many campaign specifics, but it's not like this is the first edition of the game or anything... ;)
 

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