What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[Neonchameleon]

I gotta be honest, over here in the land of my increasingly myopic rules-light preferences, the difference between these two points of view is pretty negligible and academic.

Both are additives to increase the tactical decision making in a combat - and extra things to track. It makes little difference to me if it's conditions with paperclips or where exactly on a grid a mini is.

Mileage certainly varies for folks who want that level of crunchiness, of course!

I have a question: if you are purely into rules light why worry about a thread about Draw Steel and PF2e?

But forced movement isn't really "extra things to track". You're already playing in an environment so there's nothing added to the fiction. If you're helping visualise by means of a sketch map that's not adding rules complexity. And if you're already putting people on a battlemap you're not tracking something else with forced movement, just making use of what you are already tracking.

Forced movement is unlikely to show up in Grant Howitt one pagers -but there's no reason it can't show in something the weight of a PbtA game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I have a question: if you are purely into rules light why worry about a thread about Draw Steel and PF2e?

But forced movement isn't really "extra things to track". You're already playing in an environment so there's nothing added to the fiction. If you're helping visualise by means of a sketch map that's not adding rules complexity. And if you're already putting people on a battlemap you're not tracking something else with forced movement, just making use of what you are already tracking.

Forced movement is unlikely to show up in Grant Howitt one pagers -but there's no reason it can't show in something the weight of a PbtA game.

I hadn't been under the impression that games at that end were particularly big into tracking position in general, but them not being my jam, I may be unaware of counterexamples.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I hadn't been under the impression that games at that end were particularly big into tracking position in general, but them not being my jam, I may be unaware of counterexamples.

Lighter games track what they value and not what they don't. And tend to be focused round valuing a few things. So yes, most lighter games don't use battlemaps. Or encumbrance. Or skills. Or ... But I can think of games that do all these.

I've got Major Property Damage! on my work bench - a fairly light Draw Steel Supers hack I'm working on where the best way to build meta currency is save civilians.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Lighter games track what they value and not what they don't. And tend to be focused round valuing a few things. So yes, most lighter games don't use battlemaps. Or encumbrance. Or skills. Or ... But I can think of games that do all these.

I just hadn't been under the impression that "character positioning in combat" was a thing they value very often. As I said, I'm speaking from nothing but impressions.

 

[SteveC]

I guess just a comment on tracking all of the conditions and forced movement. I play Pathfinder Society, Paizo's equivalent of Adventurers League, and so have played with a huge variety of players and GMs. Some really good ones and some more basic. There has never been a problem with tracking conditions. Sometimes you have to mention it, such as "I have an 18 to hit with off-guard" but usually the GM just tracks it. And you track what happens to your character.

I played the Quick Start for Draw Steel and the conditions were a little different, which took me a bit to get up to speed on, but I have no doubt it would soon become second nature for me and for most players.

When I run PF2, I do it online, and everything is tracked for me automagically, so that's even better.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess just a comment on tracking all of the conditions and forced movement. I play Pathfinder Society, Paizo's equivalent of Adventurers League, and so have played with a huge variety of players and GMs. Some really good ones and some more basic. There has never been a problem with tracking conditions. Sometimes you have to mention it, such as "I have an 18 to hit with off-guard" but usually the GM just tracks it. And you track what happens to your character.

I've got to say I'd find the expectation I track all conditions at both ends something I'd not want to do. If players want to play in a game with some crunch, handling the parts applying to their characters is their job, not mine.

When I run PF2, I do it online, and everything is tracked for me automagically, so that's even better.

This, of course, is a common thing now, but I've never taken it as a given that I'll be using a VTT that does that kind of heavy lifting for me.