What good are insta-kill spells and monsters ?

[Rashak Mani]

This weekend our Cleric got wasted by a Golem with an insta-kill save or die spell in him in the first round. Since we weren't aware of this capability this added ZERO to the game. Dying is one thing... dying suddenly due to a completely unforeseen enemy capability simply sucked big.

I'm not whining... if we knew about this we might have felt suspense, tension or fear of the Golem. We might have tried to get around him somehow. When you know you will face a Medusa you can prepare yourself ... and that adds something to the game. Even if you can't prepare... it does something to the game. Hunting beholders ? Get good Fort saves for example.

Petrification can be reversed with spells and potions... paralysis spoils that combat for the player but ends eventually... charm, confusion and other "insta-takeout" are usually not definite. So even if they are a total surprise they don't spoil the game.

Anyone disagrees ? Does anyone think surprise insta-kill monsters and spells add something to the game beyond high mortality and disgruntled players ? When I'm the DM I stay very clear of these game spoilers... unless they add to the game and create fear in the players. Still at least they can plan on how to deal with these risks.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

It adds a level of reality and sh*t happens to a game but I generally don't think either are needed. It takes away some interest in their characters from the PC's. Once this happens you get odder and odder characters who are played with little regard for the DM's world.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

This weekend our Cleric got wasted by a Golem with an insta-kill save or die spell in him in the first round. Since we weren't aware of this capability this added ZERO to the game.

You mean like a good critical hit? Or a fighter with rogue levels or the Improved Dirty Fighting feat?

S' happens but there are a bunch of ways to get around it. Death Ward, Delay Poison, good ol' recon, Commune, Divination, Augury and the ever popular Raise Dead.

 

[BlackMoria]

Insta-kills have been part of the game since the beginning.

Had the cleric got roasted by a red dragon's breath, or disintegrated by a lich or fell down a pit trap to die on the spikes below, would you have still posted?

My perception based on your post is that you seem discontent that the cleric died to a 'surprise' ability of the golem and that you would have been okay with the death if the group had a warning about the golem's capability and prepared for it but the cleric still died. Is my assessment wrong here?

Our group uses insta-kills spells and it cuts both ways. While they may bemoan the fact that the paladin failed his save and died against a symbol of death, they cheer when the group's mage pentrated the spell resistance of a old black dragon and disintegrated it (3.0 rules)on the first round of combat because the dragon auto failed the save with a roll of 1.

And, depending on your campaign, its not like death is necessarily permanent.

Surprisely, when the 3.5 rules came out, I asked our group if they wanted to adopt the 3.5 spells for disintegrate, etc. or remain with the old spell rulings and they voted to remain with the old spell rulings. The reason - insta-kill spells work more for them than against them (disintegrate is the favorite spell of the group's mage and he has disintegrated tons of foes). Also, I think they get off on beating the odds of survival for a deadly encounter and be able to brag about it later....

At any rate, a group discussion with the DM might be in order. Express your concerns and see if the DM is willing to 'soften' up insta-kill spells and effects, keeping in mind that if spell effects or saves change, it applies universally to everyone.

My two coppers...

 

[Angcuru]

Well...if you expect your character to know everything about monsters that you do, then that's metagaming, isn't it? Character croaked. Raise dead, reincarnation, etc.etc. take your pick.

 

[silentspace]

Ever try playing a rogue and miss a trap?

 

[MerakSpielman]

Remember back when pretty much all poison was save or die? Insta-death has been majorly toned down from previous editions.

I remember when a pair of bodaks killed 2 characters before they were taken down. They went to check the bodies of their fellows (who I had described as "suddenly falling down motionless") and were horrified to find out that they were dead.

They took it in stride, though, and in-character. They got the 2 raised, and went to a friendly wizard tower and spent the next 2 weeks of game-time studying everything they could find in the library about the abilities of various undead. They did NOT want a nasty surprise like that again.

They did not bemoan the fact that I sprung nasty monsters on them without warning them ahead of time, they instead felt that their characters had done inadequate research and preparation. This is not a mistake they made again, in fact, Death Ward (now always prepared as a matter of course) saved their life more than once after this encounter.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Anyone disagrees ? Does anyone think surprise insta-kill monsters and spells add something to the game beyond high mortality and disgruntled players ? When I'm the DM I stay very clear of these game spoilers... unless they add to the game and create fear in the players. Still at least they can plan on how to deal with these risks.

I'm one of those wishy-washy DMs who runs a campaign to tell a story. Since the story revolves around the charactes I hate killing them in a anti-climactic way. How boring would it have been in Star Wars if Luke had run into Stormtroopers when he went back home to check on his Uncle and Aunt. They'd find out where the droids were and Kenobi's status as a Jedi, call in for reinforcements and win. The Rebellion would have been crushed and the story over. I typically don't put my players in situations like that except at truly cinematic momements when I've prepared them emotionally (Like Luke & Vader's duel at the end of ROTJ). Exceptions do happen though. Last session I was running my group through Sunless Citadel and one of the goblins got really lucky and managed to knock the Human Cleric and Dwarven Fighter unconsious and was about to do the same to a Tiefling Monk. The Elven Wizard intervened and cast Charm Person on the goblin to keep him from destroying the whole party. All of it was due to great dice rolls for me and really poor ones for the party. This was ONE goblin who did this.

 

[diaglo]

Does anyone think surprise insta-kill monsters and spells add something to the game beyond high mortality and disgruntled players ? When I'm the DM I stay very clear of these game spoilers... unless they add to the game and create fear in the players.

games that avoid "accidental" deaths bore the p*ss outta me.

even well prepared tactics can fall prey to just plain accidents or weather or acts of God (where Gods do take an active role in the game world)....

i like the fact that insta-kill monsters and spells exist in the game.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

This sort of thing leaves me as a really frustrated player.

IMO, Instakill can be OK if the suspense is built up... thrown in as a random hazard I find it's a bit much.

Some people have suggested the raise technique - that's most likely a level lost. Still it's only a months play to get it back? No real loss then.

Or that a dragons breath is much the same. Frankly if a dragon turned up 'by suprise from nowhere' and fragged my character in a single hit then I'd be pretty hacked off as well.

If I'm 'doing something I shouldn't' or being stupid (failing to scout, not paying attention, etc) or in some way 'deserve' it then fair enough otherwise... I don't enjoy that sort of thing.


Edit: missed a bit!