What happened to elves?

[rounser]

There is, of course, a vast difference between something being 'fun', and something being 'happy and fun loving'.

Indeed. The tone of D&D has changed over the years. Perhaps Hackmaster was a balancing reaction to this - an extreme swing of the pendulum back towards the whimsical side of D&D. What's interesting to me is the sheer level of resentment and hostility to a game which takes this theme and runs with it - people going out of their way to bag it, as if it's mere existence threatens them on some level.

 

[Black Omega]

Indeed. The tone of D&D has changed over the years. Perhaps Hackmaster was a balancing reaction to this - an extreme swing of the pendulum back towards the whimsical side of D&D. What's interesting to me is the sheer level of resentment and hostility to a game which takes this theme and runs with it - people going out of their way to bag it, as if it's mere existence threatens them on some level.

It's just how things go. I went over to the Hackmaster boards for a night. Maybe it was a bad night but that was one intensely hostile group of people when it came to any system other than Hackmaster.

And just to stay slightly on topic, I quite enjoyed Brust's use of elves in the Vlad Taltos novels.

 

[dcas]

The Moriquendi are the elves that never got to see the light of the two trees of Valinor. This includes the race of elves living in Mirkwood under Thuranduil. Legolas, being Thuranduil's son, is a "Dark Elf". Ha HA!

Yes, that's true. There's an episode in The Silmarillion in which Thingol is called a "Dark Elf" by one of Feanor's sons, a deadly insult because Thingol had been to Valinor as an emissary and seen the light of the Two Trees.

Originally posted by ColonelHardisson

Although Tolkien made sure to mention that all the Elves could be merry and sing the night away, he also stressed that the Wood Elves, the ones in The Hobbit, were the ones most light-hearted (and, maybe not incidentally, the least wise). The ones we see in the Lord of the Rings were the Sindar (Legolas and probably Celeborn) and Noldor Elves (Galadriel and Glorfindel), the most wise (especially the Noldor) of the Elves left in Middle Earth.

Celeborn's history is confused. At one point he is termed a kinsman of Thingol (which would make him one of the Sindar), and at another time he is described as one of the Teleri (the Elves who inhabited the Lonely Isle near Valinor). I think Tolkien decided on the former -- it makes more sense that way since he didn't leave Middle-earth with Galadriel. One would think that if he had been across the Sea he wouldn't have any compunctions about going back!

As far as Legolas is concerned, his father Thranduil is described as one of the Sindar but I assume his mother was a sylvan (wood) elf, although I don't think this was ever made explicit.

Elrond (and Aragorn!) had the blood of all three elven tribes (the Noldor, the Teleri [of whom the Sindar were a part], and the Vanyar). I can't remember the genealogy off the top of my head, though.

 

[rounser]

Maybe it was a bad night but that was one intensely hostile group of people when it came to any system other than Hackmaster.

I'm not surprised they're defensive and counterattacky on their own territory. Whenever they venture from there and mention their support for Hackmaster, they can expect to get their game chewed out by other RPG'ers.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Elves are elves.
Elves are not solemn, somber humans.

If elven thought processes were even remotely like that of humans, elves could not remain sane.
Could you remain sane, if you knew you were doomed to a wretched hunter-gatherer life (or worse yet, an even more wretched peasant/slave medieval life) for the next 1,000 years?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm not surprised they're defensive and counterattacky on their own territory. Whenever they venture from there and mention their support for Hackmaster, they can expect to get their game chewed out by other RPG'ers.

There is some truth in that. However, I've made it a habit to support the game here. My reward was a HM board regular coming here and agitating a flame war. Ironically, EN World is spoken of at the HM boards as the RPG.net boards are spoken of here.

Anyway, as for Elves - HackMaster has the Grel, an evil Elven race that is something like Wild Elves, but much more violent.

Runequest Elves are interesting - they are sentient plants, basically. RQ is worth looking into if a different take on Elves is desired.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

A couple other takes on Elves that I think are interesting:

Michael Moorcock used what are basically what we think of as Elves, but renamed - the Melniboneans (the Elric stories) and the Vadhagh (the Corum stories). I think Corum is actually a pretty good model for a D&D Elf character.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Zaruthustran - The "aloofness" of D&D elves predates 3E by quite a bit.

By George, you're right! Now that I'm home and can thumb through my old books, I've found that 2E lists elves as haughty and aloof, and AD&D has no roleplaying notes at all! I must be thinking of Basic.

I stand corrected.

By the way, if you ever want to fall in love with 3E again, just crack open your old AD&D manuals. Under "Wild Elf" in Monster Manual 2, it says that they're good at making traps, and anyone passing within 10 feet of a trap has a 90% chance of getting caught. Just a straight-up 90% chance. Doesn't matter if you're 1st level or 100th level; a clueless Fighter or an eagle-eyed Ranger.

-z

 

[Kesh]

I've basically sorted this out in my campaign world.

Elves were originally chaotic and rather carefree. They were hunter-gatherers, used a rather simple tribal structure of family/government and, if I may quote Star Trek, "[made] love at the drop of a hat. Any hat."

Unfortunately, this nearly got them all wiped out. While strong warriors, they were undisciplined in combat and the gnolls of the lands invaded with swift, terrible precision. It was only through their knowledge of the forests and power of their clerics that they defeated the gnolls.

This led to a split in their race. A powerful priest declared that the only way for the elven people to survive was to give up their chaotic ways and live strict, disciplined lives. Thus, they could take control of their collective destiny, rather than washing aimlessly through time's turbulent waters.

Thus, the "High Elves" were born. Though they still have an inborn chaotic streak, their society is strict and full of laws to make sure each person fulfills their debt to society. They've built grand cities of stone and trees, and established fortifications to hold off the gnolls. Several monastic orders arose, teaching the way of the body as a weapon through rigorous training. Marraiges are formal affairs, usually preordained, and dalliances are severely punished when discovered. Also, homosexuality is considered a heinious crime, as it does nothing to contribute to the small elven population and implicitly defies the order & law of marraige.

Those who remained in the deep forests became the "Wild Elves." A focal point of their society is to follow where life leads, rather than trying to force it into your own narrow vision. They still suffer from low numbers, elven breeding taking so long to replenish their families, but have managed to survive even the harshest of winters and several more gnoll incursions.

And yes, they still make love at the drop of a hat. Homosexual activities are gently discouraged in this time of lean tribes but, as long as children are contributed at some point, it's generally accepted.

 

[Steverooo]

Elves

Elrond (and Aragorn!) had the blood of all three elven tribes (the Noldor, the Teleri [of whom the Sindar were a part], and the Vanyar). I can't remember the genealogy off the top of my head, though.

Elrond, and his brother, Elros, were the Peredhil, or Half-Elven, but in Middle Earth, such was not to be! So they were given a choice; to be Human, or Elven.

Elrond, of course, chose to be an Elf. Elros Tarminyatur became Human, and the first King of Numenor, from which Isildur and Anarion (and eventually, Arathorn and Aragorn) descend.

Hence Arwen Undomiel's words to him upon their first meeting, when he declares his newly-learned lineage to her... "Ah, then we are kinsmen from afar"!

Aragorn's bllodline contained not only Elf and Human, but also Melian the Maia's, of whom it was prophesied that her line would never end! IIRC, it was also Beren and Luthien who were the Human/Elven parents of Elrond and Elros.

Now as to Tolkien's Elves... When the party first rides down into Rivendell (in The Hobbit?), we certainly see the Elves laughing, singing, and cavorting, making fun of Bilbo, and so on... There, Tolkien also makes mention of "High elves, and merry ones". To me, that implies different types.

Feanor and his sons certainly weren't the laughing, singing types. Neither was Maeglin!

Now Legolas, on the other hand... While the rest of the party battles the cold and snow on Caradras the Cruel, he merrily shouts "I go to find the sun!", and runs off across the new-fallen snow. When he gets back, he says something like "She will not come! She is dancing on the fields of Cormallen!"

Nope, no comedy, there! He's certainly being aloof! His "game" with Gimli at Helm's Deep never struck me as being played with a straight face, either.