What happens to OGC which violates OGL?

This thread has definately been enlightening. Maybe a little heavy on certain authors, but sometimes the gloves must come off to get a publisher's attention (of the community at large).

I know, after reading this thread, that all of our future products will have a MUCH better OGC declaration. We attempted to define everything in "Question of Honor: A Guidebook to Knights", but this board has given me a ton of new ideas.

I really like the idea of a seperate file of OGC only material that can be distributed to publishers. I also liked the idea of designating from where we referenced specific items. Finally, the idea of specificly designating OGC inside the main document is a wonderful idea, and I will look into it further on how we can do this. Without detracting from the document itself, of course.

If I have some time, I will look into redoing some of QoH to meet these new ideas. Once again, the beauty of pdf publishing, is I can send all of our customers update opportunities for no cost on our side.

Cameron Guill
Alea Publishing Group
www.AleaPublishing.com

[Editted for spelling ideea => idea]
 
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Dana_Jorgensen said:
As for the problems with poor OGC designation, it would be nice if the latest update of the D20 STL included the solution provided in the Action! System STL.

For each Action!-based product you publish, you have to prepare a file containing all of its OCG content in text or RTF format. This file has to then be made available to any registered publisher who requests it from you.
I looked at including Action! stats in my books and decided against it since it would require maintaining another file outside my main text file.

I'd drop the d20 logo in a heartbeat if they did the same thing. I think most of the publishers would start looking seriously at an alternative logo if they had to expend more energy (time & money) sending an extra file to Wizards everytime they put out a book, or web enhancement, or product preview.
 

afstanton said:
I don't have Arcana Unearthed, so I don't know how close the Dragon article is to Monte's spell templates, but I do know that the Dragon didn't properly update Section 15 of the OGL. :(

Aaron

And they still didn't, BUT, in Dragon 312 they specified Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed and the Diamond Throne as PI (and, thus, the rest is OGC).

I also want to make clear, I don't think Monte is a bad guy, or a mean guy, or a hostile guy. I think he's a great writer. I am simply refining my purchases to material that has potential use beyond my home campaign.

Cheers,
Nell.
 

I caught that problem in Dragon and I advised the guys at Paizo of the mistake. Eric Mona advised me they printed a correction based on my suggestion, which is good. But it brings up the problem of using second hand OGC. You run the risk that the first reuser is doing it right--which in this case Dragon didnt.

As for Monte's OGC, I think we need to consider a few things.

First, as for altering the d20 STL to require including an OGC document, I think most major publishers would just abandon the d20 STL if they did that. There is sort of a problem with some companies republishing other people's OGC whole cloth in "compendiums" which quickly renders your product not marketable. That is a bad thing. Remember, the market forces that make it good for WotC to release OGC is not the same for the small publisher. We create a network externality effect for WotC. Reuse of OGC has not, in the three years of d20 so far, created more than a handful of similar sales for third party publishers.

Second, unlike you or I, Monte has some very valuable PI that he really needs to protect. Monte is the Gygax of 3E and he needs to be really careful with protecting his PI. Blizzard might license his PI from HIM, though they will never care what we do. That leads him to use a more restrictive (though still appropriate) designation. I had to do the same with Necropolis and our Judges Guild stuff, which is content that doesnt belong to me. It is stuff I was using under license. So those designations are as tight and restrictive as I can make them because they had to be that way.

Third, the different font thing is really letting the tail wag the dog. Only 1% of users (or less) care about the OGC designations or even know what they are. You dont make annoying layout decisions to please the 1% of purchasers if it bothers the other 99%. I have yet to see a "designation by layout" method that I didnt find intrusive, which is why I also dont use it. As another matter, that is usually actually a bad way to designate OGC because if you miss some, you are in violation of the license.

So in short, different publishers have different reasons for doing their designations like they do. It is easier to make your product 100% OGC if you know that no one will ever come trying to get a license from you to use that content. On the flip side, if you have valuable content or content you yourself are using under license, you have to basically craft the most restrictive designation possible because you dont have the right to open up any more than is required.

I've done products that were super tight (Judges Guild) and products that were basically 100% OGC and included instructions showing people how to reuse the OGC. So it varies by publisher and by product.

Clark
 

Orcus,

What do you think of closing rules as Monte does in AU in particular the new death's door rules and specific spell templates (though not the concept)?
I was wondering because I'm designing a campaign setting that introduces a number of new rules... what are the pros and cons of such a choice? What are the boundaries? Are there specific rules that you can and cannot claim as closed? I used to think SRD derivaitive work had to be OGC, but with Monte's new Death Door's rules being closed I'm now wondering if my interpretation of "enhancement over the prior art" was wrong... (maybe you should put out an overview of the OGL like you did the changes to the d20 license ;-)
I know one Con to closing is that I can't use Monte's death's door or specific spell template rules... but I know there is a good reason not too... I just can't think of one (mainly because IANAL ;-)

Thanks,
Joseph Miller

PS: I just what to thank you for your thoughtful feedback... almost everything you have written since I entered this field (almost three years ago) has been both thoughtful and informative and I know that I have learned a great deal from your posts here and on the OGL list... Good Gaming and God Bless!
 
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Jeez, thanks.

I'll try to reply but it is tough and it is really a case by case thing.

Closing spell names has been done pretty commonly. So has closing monster names. I have always taken that to mean the person is closing their incarnation of that particular name. For example, when you designate as PI (my favorite example) the "frost ape" there is no way in the world that means no one can ever make another frost ape. What it means is you are declaring as your PI the "total package" of the frost ape--the name combined with your art for it and your description of it and its totality. I dont think there is any publisher that would consider it a violation if you made your own "frost ape" after they had made one, unless all of a sudden it had the same description and the same special things about it that made it unique (and i dont just mean that it is an ape that lives in the cold).

There is nothing in the OGL (IMHO) that requires proper names to EVER be considered derivative. They are fair game (IMHO) to be closed. Now that may bring a new set of gripes that I will get in to here for a second.

1. There are the gripes that a person CAN'T do something.
2. Then there are the gripes that people SHOULDN'T do something.
3. Then there are the gripes that people should do something DIFFERENTLY.

People who talk about OGL violations often mix all three of these up.

Arguing over the clarity of an OGC designation often is a 2 or 3 above, not a 1. In other words, it doesnt truly violate the license, people just think you shouldnt do it that way (for example, define OGC as narrowly as possible rather than opening up as much as possible) or that you should do it differently (for example, using a font or a box of text to designate OGC rather than a broad textual designation in the back of the book).

So back to closing names. I dont think closing proper names EVER falls under 1. You CAN close proper names.

The question becomes SHOULD you do it, or perhaps should you do it DIFFERENTLY.

Sometimes that depends on the content and how you want to handle it.

I will be honest. From a publisher's standpoint it is easier to close ALL the monster or spell names and then make ONE simple license that allows their use (like we did in the original Relics and Rituals) than to pick and choose which words of which names are closed and which are open.

Another reason to close them all is that it is safer. One problem with being so detailed and picking and choosing is that you might make a mistake and mis-label something as open that should be PI and then you just screwed yourself. So the broader tactic of "closing all monster names" or "closing all spell names" is safer for the particular PI--particularly for larger works like a hardback book like AU.

The interesting issue you raise is closing RULES that seem to be derivative. I can tell you that this issue is far from settled even among publishers who have been discussing this issue for some time. There are many good arguments on both sides. For example, you can say that there have been hundreds of game systems and mechanics that existed prior to d20 so to say that all rules in a d20 product have to be derivative by default is (IMHO) way too overbroad. You could certainly come up with new rules and new mechanics that you simply express in terms of resolution with a d20 that doesnt make the rule derivative.

Here is an example. In our new Player's Guide to the Wilderlands (a new setting) I detail the Sage PC class. In a sidebar I talk about tomes of ancient knowledge and encourage DMs to create unique and valuable books that may not even contain spells, just knowledge that may be used to provide a bonus to certain Knowledge skill checks for example. I also talk about some evil books being mind-crushingly alien (kind of a nod to Lovecraft). I detial Will saves and Wisdom damage and some other things. Now, the term "Will save" is a d20 mechanic. The term "temporary (or permanent) ability damage" is a d20 mechanic. Does that mean that the rest of the text of my new idea about books MUST by definition be a derivative rule and thus 100% open? I would say no. I would point to the Call of Cthulhu (non-d20) rules and say, see that rule idea existed before d20 was even invented. The fact I am expressing a similar type of rule in d20 terms doesnt necessarily make it derivative.

The problem is, if that isnt derivative, then what is? It is quite a can of worms.

The point is we have to admit that new rules and mechanics can be created that have nothing to do with d20 and that are simply expressed in d20 terms. If a rule is truly novel, though it is expressed in d20 terms, I think (IMHO) it can be closed.

The other side of the coin, for example, is a new feat. You can close the name but the mechanics of the feat are clearly derived from the d20 SRD. But a good example might be Monte's Talents. That could be closeable content.

The pros of closing stuff (particularly in a broad way) is it is easier for the publisher to handle permission to use content. Most spell names or gods or things like that at some point will have PI in it. For example, there were a large number of spell names in Relics and Rituals that had our unique god names in them and setting or race names. Rather than try to pick through each one, we just PId all the names and then in the book itself provided a short blanket license to use the content in a limited fashion. The other "pro" is that your PI is tighter. To some people that is important as I detailed in the post above.

The con is that some people will gripe based on 2 or 3 above (and some might even gripe based on 1 above) that you SHOULDNT have closed that content or that you should have designated it DIFFERENTLY (and some will say that you CAN'T do it the way Monte did it).

To me the most relevant distinction is for gripes from category 1.

Nobody (publishers included) agree on 2 or 3. Some say open it all (generally people with nothing too valuable to lose), some say close it all. Some purchasers say "I wont buy it if it isnt open" which (IMHO) is rediculous because there are so many reasons why something needs to be closed. Others (the other 99%) of purchasers dont care.

So I guess the bottom line is that I believe some rules are true new inventions and are unique and the simple fact that they use d20 terms to explain them does not mean the rule must be open. That said, I dont offer any opinion on whether or not Monte's stuff is proper or not. I will say this--a lot of people dont like Monte's tight designations, but most of those people are not publishers who dont have to think about things like licensing that content to other people and the problems of protecting your own very unique and valuable intellectual property. One day, believe it or not, d20 will be gone. Maybe three years from now, maybe 30. But if you kept a tight PI designation, you have more content to license later. And I can say this for Monte, he is in this industry for the long haul. I can also say this, he is a great guy who cares a lot about open gaming. Please dont necessarily take his designations (which are the height of internal business decisions) as a reflection of his thoughts about open gaming.

Clark
 

It seems strange to me that an implementation of a rule that uses d20 System terms can be contrived as not being derivative from the d20 System.... but Orcus has obviously far more experience and knowledge in these issues, so I'll just accept it as one of life's little mysteries.

As for Monte's caring about Open Gaming... all I can say is that if he does, he doesn't put his money where his mouth his. [That's not a condemnation, just an observation.]
I disagree regarding others not risking things by declaring their products 100% OGC. I can certainly see a person copying Legions of Hell verbatim, perhaps in his own book on Hell, which could seriously impact Grin Ronnin's sales. I don't THINK someone will stoop so low, but its just as likely - if not more so - than someone ripping off AU material, IMHO. Demons and devils are always "in demand", and there are quite a few good ideas there.

Finally, I would like to note that I have found Atlas's clear OGC declarations in-text serves to differentiate between rules and flavor, which actually smoothed the reading of the text (often I just skipped reading the rules till I needed them). I did not find it intrusive. YMMV.

[Edit: lessened unwarranted "attack" on Monte.]
 
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I'm going to attack the example given (an argument no-no, I realize) but I have no other way to express this. I also don't want to appear to be Monte bashing, it's just that all the examples so far have involved AU. Even so, I don't think Monte should have closed any rule content and I disagree strongly with Clark's reasoning as to why he could close rule content.

Orcus said:
Here is an example. In our new Player's Guide to the Wilderlands (a new setting) I detail the Sage PC class. In a sidebar I talk about tomes of ancient knowledge and encourage DMs to create unique and valuable books that may not even contain spells, just knowledge that may be used to provide a bonus to certain Knowledge skill checks for example. I also talk about some evil books being mind-crushingly alien (kind of a nod to Lovecraft). I detial Will saves and Wisdom damage and some other things. Now, the term "Will save" is a d20 mechanic. The term "temporary (or permanent) ability damage" is a d20 mechanic. Does that mean that the rest of the text of my new idea about books MUST by definition be a derivative rule and thus 100% open? I would say no. I would point to the Call of Cthulhu (non-d20) rules and say, see that rule idea existed before d20 was even invented. The fact I am expressing a similar type of rule in d20 terms doesnt necessarily make it derivative.

<snip>

So I guess the bottom line is that I believe some rules are true new inventions and are unique and the simple fact that they use d20 terms to explain them does not mean the rule must be open.
So which is it? Is the new rule a true innovation or is it based on old Cthulhu rules? How is a rule based on a new game and innovation? I find the idea of a book doing damage fairly old-school. I've done this in my games before. My source of inspiration was the explosive runes spell but with a suggestion or insanity effect, and no explosion. (My players avoid touching, let alone opening, mysterious tomes in my games.)

Second, in the specific case of Monte's death's door rules: I've been using the exact same point of death (negative Con) in my home games for the last 15 years. So you'll understand if I don't find it innovative. I know I didn't come up with the idea. I probably read it somewhere.

Spell templates generally are just metamagic feats that don't affect the casting level of the spell. You could rewrite Eschew Materials to say "Benefit: you may apply the Immaterial template to spells" and in the Immaterial spell template state: "Spells cast with this template do not require material components unless those components are worth more than 1 gp." I don't find them innovative, more of a twist on existing feat design.

In any case, I have a feeling I will not persuade Clark that his interpretation is off and I know he won't sway me so I don't plan to respond to this except if clarification is needed. Since Clark says this has been argued elsewhere (this is my first encounter with it) I won't dig up a deadhorse to add my whip marks to it.
 

Orcus,

Thanks for the well-thought out argument at least now I understand why someone might want to close rules content... I still think though that generic rules (like the Monte's Death's Door rules) that are not intricately linked to the PI of a setting should be open (#2 in your above example), while those rules that are obviously campaign specific (such as Birthright's bloodline rules) could for very good reasons be closed. Of course there are some grey areas which I think might deserve a treatment similar to Monte's Spell Templates (and perhaps Talents) where one closes the content, but opens up the concept. I think this is an interesting middle ground, but I'm not certain how it will work out in the long run.

Take Care,
Joseph

PS: As for Monte I deeply respect his design ability and I know that he cares quite a bit for opening gaming... I just wish he had a license for those of us who want to use his closed rules, but not his PI.... hopefully he will someday ;-)
 

I never answered the question regarding my example of the tomes of ancient knowledge. In fact, I used it as an example because I think it can go both ways.

I like the comment you made about you have used similar death's door rules for 15 years. That is what I am talking about. Clearly, you came up with those rules before there was d20 so it is hard to say that the "concept" of a rule that deals with death's door must inherently be derivative of the d20 SRD--heck, lots of us had that rule long before d20 ever existed. The issue is, is something derivative and therefore open by default simply because it is described in d20 terms. Many people argue "no." Rules can be created and are deserving of protection as newly created concepts even though they are expressed in d20 terms.

I, frankly, havent come to my final opinion on this yet. My question is: if that is the case then when is something derivative and when is it an enhancement over prior art? I think that is a question that is hard to answer. My suggestion to publishers is to only close rules that are truly novel--a new way of doing things or a true improvement--not simply a different way to do things in the same system.

The best example I can think of would be the Sanity check in CoC. I think everyone will agree that that rule mechanic is (or at the time was) very unique to the original Call of Cthulhu. That mechanic is in fact one of the key cool unique things about the game. I think something that novel should be protectable. And if something of similar "novelty" and uniqueness was created by a d20 publisher, that should be protectable. For example, a new morale system (I know, the system doesnt need it, but this is an example) for d20. That could be protectable. Or a brand new spell system totally different that the d20 core system (a la Monte's templates). I think that is protectable.

The question, IMHO, is not "did you think of that same rule too". So the fact that someone else though up the idea and had it as a homebrew rule isnt really that relevant.

Clark

PS--I have had the same death's door rule since I can remember. It never made sense to me that the sickly Con 6 elf Wizard could lay there bleeding as long as the Con 20 dwarf stud. I have used negative Con since I can remember. It has always seemed like such a simple fix.
 
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