D&D (2024) What happens when a multiclass character loses a prerequisite?

[Fanaelialae]

3 intelligence is dumber than a baboon.

From a very limited perspective, sure.

However, baboons don't get a language. A character with 3 Intelligence does. Clearly there's more going on here than a single number can express.

Let's look at the default lifting and carrying rules on page 176 of the 5.0 PHB. A human with 20 Strength can lift 600 lbs. An ogre with 10 Strength can lift the same amount. Does that mean that the human and the ogre are equally strong? Clearly not! The human gets a +5 on all Strength-based checks, while the ogre gets +0. But if we were to look at that 600 lb lift in exclusion to all other factors, one could come to the wrong conclusion that there two creatures are equally strong. I would say that your baboon example is a similar case.

Just because a human and a baboon have the same Intelligence, does not mean that the human is only capable of intellectual feats that a baboon is capable of. Page 317 of the 5.0 MM lists an Ape's Intelligence as 6. That's quite possible with rolled stats. Are we to now assume that any PC or NPC with a 6 Intelligence is limited to the intellectual capacity of an ape, or are we willing to allow that a single value maybe doesn't tell the whole story?

 

[ECMO3]

Do you have any argument with the statement that this won't affect the vast majority of players and even if it did, wouldn't actually affect their choice to multiclass?

Yes and No. I have been playing 10 years and this is the first time it has come up, so it is correct that it would not effect the vast majority of PCs I've seen from 5E.

As for the decision to multiclass, if it was to happen I think this would affect this on a lot of players. Specifically because losing the ability in the class you currently have means also losing the ability to multiclass into anything else. For example the Paladin-Rogue I talked about earlier can't take any other classes now. So for example, even though Fighter uses a Strength and Dex multiclass and he presumably has both of those covered, he can't take any Fioghter levels because he can't multiclass out of Paladin with a 12 Charisma, even though he already has Rogue levels and can arguably continue with Rogue and Paladin levels.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

From a very limited perspective, sure.

However, baboons don't get a language. A character with 3 Intelligence does. Clearly there's more going on here than a single number can express.

Let's look at the default lifting and carrying rules on page 176 of the 5.0 PHB. A human with 20 Strength can lift 600 lbs. An ogre with 10 Strength can lift the same amount. Does that mean that the human and the ogre are equally strong? Clearly not! The human gets a +5 on all Strength-based checks, while the ogre gets +0. But if we were to look at that 600 lb lift in exclusion to all other factors, one could come to the wrong conclusion that there two creatures are equally strong. I would say that your baboon example is a similar case.

Just because a human and a baboon have the same Intelligence, does not mean that the human is only capable of intellectual feats that a baboon is capable of. Page 317 of the 5.0 MM lists an Ape's Intelligence as 6. That's quite possible with rolled stats. Are we to now assume that any PC or NPC with a 6 Intelligence is limited to the intellectual capacity of an ape, or are we willing to allow that a single value maybe doesn't tell the whole story?

No, it’s just that rolled stats produce ridiculous results - 3 strength collapses under the weight of a thick pullover. I haven’t used them for decades.

If we take the minimum intelligence for a human capable of speech and literacy as 8, then 6 for an ape makes perfect sense.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm reminded of all the debates about whether a PC polymorphed into, say, a t-rex, is capable of using tactics or not indiscriminately murdering friend and foe alike.

 

[Fanaelialae]

No, it’s just that rolled stats produce ridiculous results - 3 strength collapses under the weight of a thick pullover. I haven’t used them for decades.

The default rules allow you to carry 15 lbs per point of strength and lift 30. So unless that sweater weighs an absurd amount, you won't be collapsing under the weight of clothing. Armor... maybe, depending.

That's fine that you don't use them, but rolled stats are a RAW option in 5.0 (as well as in earlier editions), so you opting not to use them is meaningless beyond the bounds of your table.

 

[TwoSix]

From a very limited perspective, sure.

However, baboons don't get a language. A character with 3 Intelligence does. Clearly there's more going on here than a single number can express.

Let's look at the default lifting and carrying rules on page 176 of the 5.0 PHB. A human with 20 Strength can lift 600 lbs. An ogre with 10 Strength can lift the same amount. Does that mean that the human and the ogre are equally strong? Clearly not! The human gets a +5 on all Strength-based checks, while the ogre gets +0. But if we were to look at that 600 lb lift in exclusion to all other factors, one could come to the wrong conclusion that there two creatures are equally strong. I would say that your baboon example is a similar case.

Just because a human and a baboon have the same Intelligence, does not mean that the human is only capable of intellectual feats that a baboon is capable of. Page 317 of the 5.0 MM lists an Ape's Intelligence as 6. That's quite possible with rolled stats. Are we to now assume that any PC or NPC with a 6 Intelligence is limited to the intellectual capacity of an ape, or are we willing to allow that a single value maybe doesn't tell the whole story?

Exactly. "X Strength" or "Y Intelligence", or any other stat, are not absolute. 3 Intelligence on a human is not the same as 3 Intelligence on an ape.

The rules provide us no guidance on the diegetic meaning of any particular stat value. At best, we can try to extrapolate from Monster Manual examples and our intuition from previous editions.

All we can say for sure is that a 3 Intelligence means the character will have a -4 penalty to Intelligence checks and saves, and will struggle with wizardly magic. Any other narrative attached to that stat is decided on a per-table and per-character basis.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Feeblemind is also permanent for most creatures.

Except that you can fix it. With a much lower-level spell. No prizes for guessing how I know this.

It is permanent, but (to use my own terms, nobody else uses these AFAIK) it is not irrevocable.

The Idiot card (which 5.5e renamed to the Puzzle card) is permanent and irrevocable. As far as I know, it is the one and only example in the entirety of 5.x that has permanent, irrevocable stat loss.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes and No. I have been playing 10 years and this is the first time it has come up, so it is correct that it would not effect the vast majority of PCs I've seen from 5E.

As for the decision to multiclass, if it was to happen I think this would affect this on a lot of players. Specifically because losing the ability in the class you currently have means also losing the ability to multiclass into anything else. For example the Paladin-Rogue I talked about earlier can't take any other classes now. So for example, even though Fighter uses a Strength and Dex multiclass and he presumably has both of those covered, he can't take any Fioghter levels because he can't multiclass out of Paladin with a 12 Charisma, even though he already has Rogue levels and can arguably continue with Rogue and Paladin levels.

You are overlooking a key issue here, which was the specific reason I asked that question.

The one (and only) example given is Intelligence. That means it can ONLY affect your choice if you are choosing specifically to multiclass as either Wizard or Artificer. There are no other classes which require Intelligence in order to multiclass into them (or out of them, notably).

So, unless the player is (a) already a Wizard or Artificer who for some godforsaken reason chose to play with super low Int, or (b) some other class and choosing to MC to one of those two, then the Puzzle card is completely irrelevant. It has zero impact on their ability to multiclass.

The Puzzle card doesn't affect any stat. It only affects Intelligence.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The default rules allow you to carry 15 lbs per point of strength and lift 30. So unless that sweater weighs an absurd amount, you won't be collapsing under the weight of clothing. Armor... maybe, depending.

That's fine that you don't use them, but rolled stats are a RAW option in 5.0 (as well as in earlier editions), so you opting not to use them is meaningless beyond the bounds of your table.

Well, unless you're using the (IME extremely widely used) "variant" encumbrance rules.

In which case a person with 3 Strength can only have 15 pounds of material, which clothes count against, before they're Encumbered.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, unless you're using the (IME extremely widely used) "variant" encumbrance rules.

In which case a person with 3 Strength can only have 15 pounds of material, which clothes count against, before they're Encumbered.

Sure, but even then a thick pullover won't be 15 lbs unless it's made of something like lead (which is quite the atypical material for pullovers IME). Plus, the claim was that this character would collapse under the weight, which is not what encumbered is. In fact the variant rules don't change your max carry or max lift whatsoever. The exceeding of which is what I would expect would cause one to collapse.