What happens when an elf wildshapes?

[nittanytbone]

I've got a wildshape question.

From "Alter Self:"

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels...

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

From "Polymorph:"

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

So does this mean that an elvish druid that wildshapes into an animal form loses their +2 racial bonus to spot and listen, their low light vision, the +2 bonus vs enchantments, and their ability to find secret doors?

What happens with ability score boosts from gaining levels when wildshaped or polymorphed? For example, if you boost your strength at 4th level by +1 does the wildshaped form have a +1 str bonus?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yes, an elf that Wildshapres loses all of their Extraordinary Elf abilities as well as any stat increases. This is why humans generally make better druids if you plan on Wildshaping a lot and also why most wildshaping druids put their stat raises in mental stats.

 

[nittanytbone]

Yes, an elf that Wildshapres loses all of their Extraordinary Elf abilities as well as any stat increases. This is why humans generally make better druids if you plan on Wildshaping a lot and also why most wildshaping druids put their stat raises in mental stats.

Thanks... I suppose if my char dies, I can always hope he gets reincarnated as a human

 

[Rystil Arden]

Thanks... I suppose if my char dies, I can always hope he gets reincarnated as a human

Reincarnation as a human is very very bad because you don't gain or lose the bonus feat (I've been told). You want to be reincarnated as something with mental stat penalties and physical bonuses, like an orc, since you don't actually get the pnealties

 

[Hypersmurf]

So does this mean that an elvish druid that wildshapes into an animal form loses their +2 racial bonus to spot and listen, their low light vision, the +2 bonus vs enchantments, and their ability to find secret doors?

Right. Racial traits are Extraordinary qualities not derived from class levels.

What happens with ability score boosts from gaining levels when wildshaped or polymorphed? For example, if you boost your strength at 4th level by +1 does the wildshaped form have a +1 str bonus?

No. Just like a human with 13 Str doesn't get a +2 bonus to Str when he wildshapes, a human who increases a 13 Str to 14 at 4th level doesn't get a +3 bonus (or +1 bonus) to Str when he wildshapes. It's not a bonus; it's just a change in your base score.

Contrast this with, for example, a person under the effects of a Bull's Strength spell. He changes from being a human under the effects of a Bull's Strength spell to being a wolverine under the effects of a Bull's Strength spell, so the +4 enhancement bonus applies. The same logic applies to an inherent bonus - it's a bonus to an ability score, not a change in an ability score.

Similarly, someone who is suffering 3 points of Str damage from poison who wildshapes changes from a human suffering 3 points of Str damage from poison into a wolverine suffering 3 points of Str damage from poison.

-Hyp.

 

[SteelDraco]

Of note - I believe humans lose their bonus feat while wild shaped. Not that I'd run it that way, but I think that's the RAW.

 

[Iku Rex]

So does this mean that an elvish druid that wildshapes into an animal form loses their +2 racial bonus to spot and listen, their low light vision, the +2 bonus vs enchantments, and their ability to find secret doors?

In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.) -- Polymorphing (part two)

Don't ask me what he could possibly have meant with that justification, or what, if anything, it's based on in the rules, but if you're just looking for a clear conclusion to show your DM it should do.

There's an example in the same article, and several more examples in the next:

He [half-elf] loses his low-light vision (an extraordinary special quality). He retains his half-elf racial skill bonuses. -- Polymorphing (part three)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Don't ask me what he could possibly have meant with that justification, or what, if anything, it's based on in the rules, but if you're just looking for a clear conclusion to show your DM it should do.

There's an example in the same article, and several more examples in the next:

Well, the training bonuses, you could argue, maybe, just maybe (though it would be an argument to change the RAW to make sense, not to uphold the RAW)...But the bonuses due to elves having keen senses, I'm sorry, but you can't possibly argue that you keep those (though it seems Skip has).

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Rystil Arden, that depends on whether you view the Elves skill bonus to be derived from physical adaptation, better eyes/ears, or a culterally learned attention to detail due to longer lifespans...

Regardless, it is a departure from the RAW.
Part of this is a back-burner project of mine to change races into seperate templates, one for phsyical effects and one for culteral. That way you can be a Elf raised by Wolfs without wondering how wildshape will affect you.

[sidetrack]The concept is that the only race is Human with two bonus feats. You get to add a culteral template and can chose to take a Blooded feat which alters your race. Half-races only spend one feat while full races spend two. This fits easier into the shapechanging rules but takes alot of revamping of current design. It also makes Blooded/Bane weapons more interesting.[/sidetrack]

 

[nittanytbone]

Thanks for the link to the Skip Williams article. It is somewhat curious when he suggests that a polymorphed half-elf keeps racial skill bonuses. He is silent about the polymorphed half-elf retaining his immunity to magical sleep spells.

Would a polymorphed elf retain their immunity to sleep and +2 vs enchantments? These seem to be primarily a function of the mind, but the +2 bonus is listed as a "racial" bonus, implying once you're no longer that type you lose the bonus.

Would they be vulnerable to an elf-bane weapon as they have taken on the Animal (or some other) type?