What Happens When You Go Lich?

[Valicor]

Its nice to have a majority on the boards. As for an ECL of 6 levels, I think that would be alittle harsh to do to a player, but gaining immortality is a strong trade off.

The player never has focused much on the RP side of a game, he has always ben instrested in strength and power, not very good at getting it either.

 

[Caliber]

As far as I am aware, you are not supposed to adjust ECL after character creation ever. It just creates wonky results. Go by the book, with the Xp and gold costs that are listed there.

Don't forget how long it takes to make the phylactery. A Wizard only makes 1000 gold worth of a magical item per day right? 120000 will take close to 1/3 of a year to create in that case. (And if I am wrong, )

If everyone in the party has been slipping this character money, they have no excuse to complain if the transformation makes the character too powerful.

Don't forget that when the Cleric and Paladin start tossing around Turns, they just might catch your friend. They probably won't hurt him but you never know ...

Anyway, here is another vote for don't touch the ECL.

 

[Jeremy]

Pros

-HD all become d12 (for a d4 wizard, that's huge)
-Natural Armor +5 (+1 ECL)
-1d8+5 negative energy touch attack at will(+0.2 ECL)
-Fear Aura 60' radius (DC=10+HD+CHA, so DC 23-24 will save) (+0.5 ECL)
-Paralyzing touch Fortitude save or be paralyzed permanently, can be used in conjunction with negative energy damage Fort Save same DC as above, 23-24, at will. (+0.5 ECL)
-Turn Resistance +4 (+0.04 ECL)
-DR 15/+1 (+0.5 ECL)
-Immune to all Cold and Electricity attacks and spells (+0.5 ECL)
-Immune to all mind affecting attacks and spells and polymorph effects too (+0.5 ECL)
-Immune to all poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, and ANY spell or spell effect that allows a Fort save unless the spell affects objects. (Gee, how many thousands of things does that laundry list make you immune to?) (+1.2 ECL)
-+2 Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (+0.3 ECL)
-+48 to skills (+1.2 ECL)

Cons

-Loses Con modifier to hit points (might be important, but as the character in question is an elf with a -2 penalty to con, it's probably minor after the d12 upgrade) (-0.2 ECL)
-Can be Turned (-0.5 ECL)

Being a little lenient on the ECL for having +48 total to skills (some of the most useful in the game no less) I come out to just under +6.0 ECL, which rounds down to +5 ECL.

But regardless of that, look at that list and compare them to say a genasi or a githzerai. Both ranked at +2 in some places.. This cannot be understated.

 

[Caliber]

Sure Liches are strong. Casters wouldn't go through it if it didn't power 'em up. But ECL shouldn't be touched post character creation. Just my opinion really, since the rules never really say so either way.

As a counter argument to my argument, it does seem weird that becoming a lich in-game carries fewer penalties than becoming one pregame.

 

[Jeremy]

I mean against melee fighters he negates:

all crits and sneak attacks, all death attacks, all death effects, and 15 damage off every hit that isn't +1

Against spellcasters he negates:

the entire school of necromancy, all mind effecting spells and paraylsis stunning effects which is pretty much all of enchantment and most will save spells, all fort save spells that don't effect objects + polymorph effects, which leaves what? 1/3 of the spells in the book? Oh and all cold and electricity spells too, so slice that percentage a little slimmer.

Against monsters he negates:

Ability damage, energy drain, poison, disease, and any minion 5 HD or less..

Oh yeah, and he's immortal. Every time he dies he reforms. How's that for a change in the level equivalent of a character?

Does he get XP for walking into areas that now pose absolutely no threat to him and against foes that fear him instead of vice versa? Does he effect the average party level at all differently with his new arsenal of defenses? Heck, instead of the fighter defending the mage, the mage can throw up mage armor, shield, and protection from evil (first level spells, all three of them) and have an AC of 10+4+7+2+5=28. But this is an elf, don't forget Dex. Make that 30. Oh, and it's a mage, don't forget haste. Make that 34. Go name a critter that can hit AC 34 (there aren't many) consistently and tell me mages should be going toe to toe with it at 12th level. And this is hoping he doesn't have bracers of armor better than his mage armor or a ring of protection.

If by chance something does manage to actually take his d12 hit die (better than the fighter), not sneak attackable, barely magickable hide out, he'll be fine. The fighter's got the phylactery. He'll be back tomorrow. How's that for a benefit to have around?

How we gonna take the fort down? Send the lich in, we'll wait out here. If they take him down, we'll send him in again.

Just reading over the template you might not get all this, but if you really dig and think of how it'll affect the game every single session you'll get a better idea.

 

[Bastoche]

I had to go through a method similar to what you suggested when I wanted to enter a prestige class (custom made) I was not allowed to level up and had to fight my way through the dungeon as a level 12, because he felt the RP requirments needed to be pushed alittle further.

I think this method is good, but I am wondering if he would even make the player do this. I have a strogn feeling that he would just walk away with the template added on, no drawbacks.

You also mentioned it get incredibaly boring and unbalancing; could you maybe relate a few experiences, so I can know what to prepare for.

Well, first the lich gets d12 hit dice. That makes most fighters and/or barbarian look a little wimpy in the hit points department.

They get damage reduction (I think it's 5/+1 or 10/+1[edit]: a previous post stated that it was 15/=1 !!!!!!) which makes the high d12 hit points seem higher.

They get +2 in int, wis and cha, which gives him the highest scores in the group. Plus, being a mage, he surely already has high intelligence.

Immunity to electricity and cold effect. Immune to any mind affecting spells.

The absence of con scores allow him to virtually be immune to for save spells (which overkill the fighters/barbarian bunch and cover up the natural wizard lack in that department). And that's just the begining.

They are already wizards and become very good "melee" wizards. Render most melee fighter useless. They have tons of immunities and with their very high int scores gets a tremendous amount of skills points. Etc...

[edit]: I always considered myself more or less a powergamer. And I think this is overpowered !!! Munchkin wet dream come true !

 

[Voadam]

I wouldn't adjust the character's level or xp requirements, Lich is an add-on for which, if he is succesful, he gets great powers. If a character gains items and spells he doesn't gain xp penalties, even if they are permanent spells, wishes or stat increasing books. Same with effects in game becoming undead or lycanthropic.

 

[Caliber]

Don't forget that Monsters of Faerun contains several new abilities, both offensive and defensive, that liches can possess. No set rules are there concerning how many abilities a lich gets, and as a house rule I would suggest something like the ghost rules, but that is aside the point.

I agree liches are INCREDIBLY powerful. In any campaign I play in, I most likely wouldn't let a character turn himself into a lich, unless that character had undergone some SERIOUS roleplay in order to facillitate the transformation. Even then, it would be shakey. And of course, since Monsters of Faerun gives no rules on how to become a good lich, I would likely make that more difficult that being a regular 'ole evil lich. (After all, they would have to overcome the new "instincts" that such a connection to the negetive energy plane brings or some such.)

Either way, however, applying an ECL after character generation seems wrong to me. I could be persuaded to house rule that the ritual involving the transformation requires an amount of Xp required to go from level 12 to level 14 (25,000 Xp, if my math is correct.) But the character ECL would still remain the same.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[Jeremy]

Gaining the lich template will make the character more powerful than a normal creature of his level correct?

Read my last two posts if you disagree.

Now, if the creature is more powerful than other creatures of his level, we run into a few minor problems. First off, CR's are based off the assumption that characters of X level have Y cababilities and Z weaknesses.

So CR's are off. This also means that XP awards are off.

So how do we fix this? Well, we can figure out about what level his character is equivalent to (i.e. ECL) and then the numbers work out, but then there's the matter of current and new XP amounts. That can be taken care of in any number of ways.

But saying the character is the same level or 2 levels higher will not address the problem.

This will lead to both the DM and the players besides the player of the lich having less fun.

Put it this way, would you allow one of your 3 10th level dwarf PC's to become immune to fire and acid damage, up his hit points, gain the ability to respawn upon death, make him immune to three schools of magic including most will saves and most fort saves, and give him the ability to cast a DC 24 hold monster spell at will that has a permanent duration, while also giving him armor of heavy fortification to make him immune to all sneak attack and critical hits, giving him a couple levels of paladin to make him immune to all disease, give him a couple levels of druid to make him immune to all poison, give him a couple levels of barbarian to give him DR, and up his primary stats while gaining +8 to 6 skills like search, spot, listen, sense motive, etc.?

Would you let a PC start with those abilities? Why not?

It's unbalancing and not fair to the other PC's.

The objective of ECL is to take a PC and make him equivalent to other PC's in his desirability. So that no one PC is more important than the others. Mess with that balance at your peril.

Adding XP pitfalls or taking or adding levels is a distasteful thing to do. But if you allow those traits to suddenly spring into being upon the completion of a ritual, they've effectively gained 6 levels in a pretty kick ass prestige class. Hell, sign me up for any class that gives that many immunities to melee, ranged, monster, and spell combat. I'd take it just for the immunity to energy drain, ability damage, and sneak attack. Even if that was the 6th level ability.

This is too many POWERFUL powers to give to a PC without affecting his effective level. A lich wizard 12 is not the same as a elf wizard 12. Not by a long shot. They shouldn't be awarded XP as such, challenged as such, or affect the party level as such.

But if that's what you want to do.. Me personally, if I were the DM and my PC wanted to step out there and do something extraordinary and noteworthy such as that, I would sit down with him and discuss a whole lot of things.

I'd pare the class down to the abilities he wanted and shave a little ECL off, then I'd compare him to the rest of the party and assign an effective ECL. Then as others have suggested I'd make that ECL into a prestige class goal. No one said the ritual didn't take 3 years or 3 adventures to complete. And as he gains levels in his prestige class, his ritual nears it's completion and his transformation gives him new powers as he goes along.

Much preferable to , POOF I'm virtually immortal!

That's my take on things.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Calibar, under the Monsters of Faerun extra Lich powers, look under the CR, I believe it says something about increasing more CR depending on the number of extra unique powers you give them...these powers are flavor, the 'generic' lich doesn't have them.

Liches are a bit overpowered yes, the immortality aspect is nice-although remember the lich has to keep his phylactery safe, which isn't the easiest thing to do-especially since you'll probably be making alot of enemies. And if your phylactery is found...and destroyed, you're pretty much screwed if you die again. The Lich template also takes out a huge chunk from your money, which could be spent on other things (certainly more than the +2 bonus to int/wis/cha). Their touch attack is pretty powerful, although a wizard's melee attack bonus is pretty low in itself, no con to hitpoints gives fighters a little advantage, especially if the lich is unlucky and you roll for hitpoints (instead of some other rule).

Also, most of the liches' immunities belong to all undead, I recall a few spells that allow you to temporarily have the undead type, most of which are personal and can be made persistant.

Roleplaying Tidbits-A character might have a hard time disguising himself, having pinpoints of glowing eyes he might scare off most common folk, and stronger characters might see through any disguises he may put on with true seeing, for instance. Not to mention clerics who are against undead or evil cults who want to recruit him-I believe that most roleplaying disadvantages shouldn't count that much though.

I do agree however that after gaining the Lich template, the lich must now take more exp to gain the next level (his ECL being effectively 2 higher).